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Introduction by Krista Tippett
Spiritual evolution is one of the great, unfolding narratives of humanity — a quiet but persistent current running beneath our cultures, our conflicts, our histories, and our longing for meaning. Across centuries, human beings have tried to name the sacred through poetry, ritual, scripture, and silence. We have reached for God in temples and deserts, in monasteries and marketplaces, in the trembling of the human heart. And in every age, our understanding of the divine has grown—sometimes slowly, sometimes through upheaval, always with a sense that something larger is at work in us.
In these conversations, John Davis invites us to consider a possibility both ancient and new: that human consciousness evolution is inseparable from the evolution of our understanding of God. Not that God is changing, but that our capacity to perceive, feel, and embody the divine is widening. He urges us to see history not as a story of failing religions, but as a tapestry of moments when humanity became just a little more capable of tenderness, awareness, justice, and inner awakening.
Our guests — scholars, mystics, historians, contemplatives, scientists — remind us that spirituality is not shrinking in the modern world; it is transforming. We are witnessing a shift from inherited belief to lived experience, from fear-based obedience to an expansive and compassionate interior life. And perhaps for the first time in human history, we have the tools — psychologically, neurologically, culturally — to understand how the sacred moves through us.
This series is not about dismantling faith but widening it. Not about discarding tradition but understanding it in its full complexity. Not about choosing between reason and reverence, but recognizing that both can guide us toward deeper truth.
In the growing light of this new stage of spiritual evolution, we are invited to reclaim what is holy within us, and to see our lives — individually and collectively — as part of a much larger unfolding story.
(Note: This is an imaginary conversation, a creative exploration of an idea, and not a real speech or event.)
TOPIC 1: Is God Evolving, or Are We Just Finally Catching Up?
Moderator: Krista Tippett
Participants: John Davis, Bart D. Ehrman, Karen Armstrong, Richard Rohr, Andrew Newberg
Krista Tippett
We begin with something that sits at the heart of every spiritual tradition: the changing face of God. When we read ancient texts, God often appears jealous, violent, tribal. But as we move forward in time, God becomes more compassionate, more universal, more inward.
So here is where I’d like to start:
Are we witnessing the evolution of God, or simply the evolution of human consciousness?
QUESTION 1 — “Does God change, or do we change?”
John Davis
When people say the “God of the Old Testament” is angry and the “God of Jesus” is loving, they’re not describing two different deities. They’re describing two different stages of human development. Early humans projected their fear, their political world, their violence onto the divine. Jesus didn’t reveal a different God; he revealed a more accurate perception of the same one.
God doesn’t evolve — our capacity to perceive God evolves. Just like a child outgrows the belief that lightning is punishment, humanity outgrows the belief that God is an angry tribal warlord. What’s changing is our inner lens.
Bart D. Ehrman
Historically, every culture shapes its god-images based on its circumstances. When Israel was at war, God looked like a warrior. During exile, God became a comforter. Jesus’ movement reframed God as a loving father because that was the spiritual need of the moment. I don’t make claims about God changing — but I can say with certainty that our stories about God absolutely evolve.
Karen Armstrong
Religions grow when human empathy grows. The Axial Age prophets — Buddha, Confucius, Jesus — all emerged as humanity became capable of greater compassion. Our God-images expand when our compassion expands. If humanity evolves morally and spiritually, our understanding of God deepens. This is not about doctrine; it’s about awakening the heart.
Richard Rohr
I’ve long said: “Your image of God creates you.”
When you believe in a punitive God, you live a punitive life.
When you believe in a loving God, you live a loving life.
God does not change. But our egos, fears, and wounds distort how we see God. Grace opens the aperture.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
From a neurological perspective, our brains construct God-concepts using the tools they have. Ancient brains under constant threat produce a fear-based God. Modern brains capable of abstraction and compassion produce a more universal God.
In scans of contemplatives, the more compassionate the worldview, the more integrated the brain becomes.
So biologically speaking: our conception of God changes because our neurology changes.
Krista Tippett
So let’s go deeper.
If humanity’s perception of God is evolving, then we must ask:
What has triggered these leaps in consciousness?
QUESTION 2 — “What causes humanity to perceive God differently across eras?”
John Davis
The catalyst is suffering.
Every major spiritual expansion arises when humans can no longer survive inside old narratives. The angry-god worldview collapses when its fear becomes unbearable. People begin to ask deeper questions:
What if the universe is kinder than we thought?
What if we are not separate from the divine?
Revelation doesn’t descend like lightning; it emerges when we’re finally ready to receive it.
Karen Armstrong
Exactly. History shows that the world’s greatest spiritual breakthroughs happen during profound social and moral crises. The prophets of Israel, Buddha in India, Confucius in China — all responded to times of violence and dislocation. Compassion was not a luxury; it was a necessity.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
Cognitive shifts also matter. As literacy spread and humans developed theory of mind, abstract thought, and deeper emotional intelligence, the brain became capable of imagining more sophisticated divine concepts. Neural architecture literally opened the door to a more compassionate God.
Richard Rohr
I’d add that when people hold too tightly to their certainty, suffering breaks it open. The ego hates ambiguity, so it creates very childish God-images. Crisis is what humbles us enough to let grace in.
Bart D. Ehrman
And practically, texts evolve. As different communities reinterpret scripture to meet their own needs, ideas of God expand. Early Christians reinterpreted Jewish scripture through the lens of Jesus. Later Christians reinterpreted Jesus through the lens of empire. Interpretation is evolution.
Krista Tippett
One final question.
If our understanding of God is expanding — what might the next evolution be?
QUESTION 3 — “What is the future of human understanding of God?”
John Davis
The next stage is interior.
People will stop imagining God “out there” and start experiencing the divine “in here.”
The future is not dogma — it’s inner awareness.
It’s the realization that love, compassion, and presence are not attributes of God…
They are the experience of God.
Richard Rohr
I believe humanity is moving toward non-duality — a recognition that God is not separate from creation. Mystics have always known this. Now ordinary people are waking up to it.
Bart D. Ehrman
I suspect the future involves acknowledging the Bible as a human document shaped by history. That honesty frees people to engage the divine directly without fear of invalidating tradition.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
Neurologically, I see a shift toward unity experiences becoming more common. Meditation, psychedelics, trauma healing — all lead to brain states where separation dissolves. That will profoundly influence future God-concepts.
Karen Armstrong
And I hope the next evolution is compassion. Not as an idea, but as a social reality. If we do not learn to see God in the stranger, we will not survive.
Krista Tippett — Closing
What I’m hearing is that God is not getting kinder or wiser — we are.
Humanity is slowly gaining the capacity to perceive a divine reality that was always present.
If that’s true, then the spiritual future is not about new doctrines but new eyes.
TOPIC 2: The Death of Fear-Based Religion: What Comes After?
Moderator: Krista Tippett
Participants: John Davis, Bart D. Ehrman, Karen Armstrong, Richard Rohr, Andrew Newberg
Krista Tippett
Fear has long been the engine of institutional religion — fear of hell, fear of punishment, fear of exclusion, fear of disappointing God.
But fear is unraveling as a spiritual motivator. People aren’t buying it anymore.
Tonight I want to ask:
If fear collapses, what comes next?
What does spirituality look like on the other side of fear?
QUESTION 1 — “If fear no longer motivates faith, what fills that vacuum?”
John Davis
Fear-based religion collapses for one simple reason: fear is incompatible with genuine spiritual growth.
You cannot evolve if you believe God is waiting to punish you.
When fear dissolves, what takes its place is curiosity, compassion, and intimacy with the divine.
People stop asking,
“Am I safe?”
and begin asking,
“How do I love more deeply?”
Fear produces obedience.
Love produces transformation.
The vacuum is filled by inner authority, not external control — the discovery that God isn’t policing behavior but awakening consciousness.
Bart D. Ehrman
Historically speaking, fear kept institutions functioning. Hell was incredibly effective at regulating society.
But as literal belief in hell declines, people seek moral frameworks grounded in empathy rather than divine punishment.
We’re watching a shift from fear-driven religion to ethics-driven spirituality.
Karen Armstrong
Fear disappears when compassion becomes the spiritual priority. In the Axial Age, new forms of religion emerged that centered on empathy, not sacrifice.
We are approaching a similar turning:
People want a spirituality that heals suffering rather than threatens punishment.
Richard Rohr
Fear is the ego’s language. Love is the soul’s language.
When fear is gone, people discover they don’t need to be threatened into goodness.
Goodness becomes their natural state.
The false self collapses.
The true self emerges.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
Neurologically, fear activates survival networks, not contemplative or compassionate circuits.
Spiritual experiences that reduce fear — meditation, community, awe — create long-term neural shifts that reinforce empathy.
Once people experience God through connection rather than threat, the brain prefers that pathway.
Krista Tippett
That leads us to a deeper and more uncomfortable question:
Why did religious institutions rely so heavily on fear in the first place?
QUESTION 2 — “Why did fear become such a powerful tool in religion?”
John Davis
Because fear is efficient.
Fear lets a small group control a large group with minimal effort.
If you convince people that God will punish them for stepping out of line, you don’t need swords or armies.
But the moment people realize that God is love — unconditional, boundless, ever-present — fear collapses.
And when fear collapses, control collapses too.
This is why every spiritual teacher who preaches love over fear threatens the status quo.
Karen Armstrong
We must remember that ancient societies were precarious. Survival was uncertain.
Religion often mirrored the anxiety of the time.
A harsh environment produced a harsh God.
Later, institutions discovered fear was politically useful.
Fear created unity.
Fear maintained order.
Fear kept hierarchies intact.
Bart D. Ehrman
Historically, hell becomes a dominant doctrine around the 4th century as Christianity becomes aligned with empire.
An eternal punishment system was extremely effective at shaping civic behavior.
Once religion merges with power, fear becomes a tool of governance.
Richard Rohr
Fear thrives wherever people insist on purity and perfection.
When the ego controls religion, it weaponizes God.
Institutions that rely on fear reveal their own spiritual immaturity.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
The brain magnifies fear-based messages because they guarantee survival.
A single threat triggers stronger neural response than a message of love.
Institutions that exploit this neurological bias gain power quickly — but lose spiritual credibility in the long run.
Krista Tippett
So if fear was once useful but no longer sustainable, we arrive at the heart of the future:
What replaces fear?
What does the next stage of faith look like?
QUESTION 3 — “What does spirituality look like beyond fear?”
John Davis
The future of spirituality is experiential, not doctrinal.
People will seek direct encounters with the divine — through meditation, contemplation, relationship, nature, compassion.
They won’t ask, “What must I believe?”
They’ll ask, “What awakens love in me?”
Fear-based religion dies the moment people taste the divine directly.
You cannot scare someone out of an experience of love.
Richard Rohr
The next stage is non-dual consciousness — seeing God in all things and all people.
Love becomes the organizing principle.
Fear loses its power because separation loses its meaning.
Karen Armstrong
I believe the future belongs to compassion-centered communities, not belief-centered ones.
People will seek spaces where they are nurtured, not judged; where they belong, not where they fear exclusion.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
We’re already seeing a rise in contemplative neuroscience — evidence that spiritual practice leads to long-term improvements in empathy and well-being.
The future is integrative:
Science + spirituality + compassion = new forms of faith.
Bart D. Ehrman
I think people will embrace a historically honest view of sacred texts while still seeking spiritual meaning.
Once fear-based literalism fades, scripture becomes a resource, not a weapon.
Krista Tippett — Closing
What I hear from all of you is this:
Fear-based religion kept humanity safe in times of instability, but it cannot nourish a spiritually mature world.
The next chapter of faith is rooted in compassion, inner experience, psychological insight, and communal belonging.
Fear was a beginning —
but love is where we are heading.
TOPIC 3: If Hell Isn’t Real, What Motivates Moral Behavior?
Moderator: Krista Tippett
Participants: John Davis, Bart D. Ehrman, Karen Armstrong, Richard Rohr, Andrew Newberg
Krista Tippett
For thousands of years, religion has tied morality to fear — fear of punishment, fear of hell, fear of divine disapproval.
But if we step outside fear-based theology — if we acknowledge the historical and textual evidence that eternal hell may not be part of the earliest Judeo-Christian worldview — then we must face a harder question:
Without hell, what keeps us moral?
What anchors goodness?
Let’s begin there.
QUESTION 1 — “If there is no eternal hell, what motivates moral behavior?”
John Davis
Hell was never the true motivator — only the most convenient one.
Fear may restrain behavior, but it cannot transform character.
Real morality emerges from consciousness, not terror.
People act morally when they see the divine in one another.
When you understand that your inner state creates your outer world, you stop harming others because you no longer wish to live in the vibration that harm creates.
Morality doesn’t collapse without hell.
It becomes authentic.
It becomes self-sustaining.
We stop doing good to avoid punishment, and start doing good because it is who we want to become.
Bart D. Ehrman
In the ancient Near East, communities survived through cooperation. Morality was rooted in mutual benefit — not threats of eternal judgment.
Even today, secular societies with no strong belief in hell — Scandinavia, for example — rank among the most ethical.
Moral behavior thrives where social trust thrives, not where punishment looms.
Karen Armstrong
Compassion is the foundation of every major religious tradition.
Before heaven and hell became central, morality was grounded in empathy and reciprocity — “treat the stranger as yourself” long predates Christian eschatology.
When people cultivate compassion, moral behavior becomes instinctive.
Richard Rohr
Hell is a fear tactic, not a path to transformation.
People who act morally only because they fear punishment remain spiritually immature.
A loving God invites us into freedom — and freedom births responsibility, not chaos.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
Neuroscience shows that empathy and compassion are hardwired capacities.
When people meditate or experience awe, the brain strengthens regions associated with moral reasoning.
Morality is a function of connection — not fear.
Krista Tippett
Let’s explore the tension more deeply.
Throughout history, fear has been used to enforce behavior.
So the question becomes:
If fear is removed, what prevents moral collapse?
QUESTION 2 — “Why doesn’t morality collapse when the fear of hell disappears?”
John Davis
Because fear never created true morality in the first place — it only created compliance.
Compliance is brittle.
It breaks under pressure.
It hides resentment.
It produces hypocrisy.
When fear collapses, people are forced to confront their own interior life. They have to ask:
Who am I when nobody is watching?
That question produces more mature ethics than any doctrine of eternal fire.
When you no longer outsource responsibility to “God will punish me,” you begin cultivating inner accountability.
Karen Armstrong
History shows that societies evolve ethical norms as empathy expands.
Moral progress — abolition, human rights, care for the vulnerable — rarely emerged from fear-based religion.
It emerged from compassion-driven movements.
Fear maintains order.
Compassion creates justice.
Richard Rohr
Fear-based morality collapses because it’s transactional.
Love-based morality endures because it’s relational.
People who experience God as love don’t behave morally out of fear of retribution — they behave morally because they recognize their unity with others.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
When people are no longer terrified of divine punishment, their stress responses decrease.
Lower stress increases executive function — better long-term decision-making.
Removing fear can actually improve moral thinking by strengthening empathy networks in the brain.
Bart D. Ehrman
The earliest Christians emphasized transformation, not threat.
The idea of moral collapse without hell is a modern anxiety — not a historical truth.
People do good because goodness benefits communities.
Fear is optional.
Krista Tippett
So if hell isn’t the foundation of morality, then the natural next question becomes:
What should replace it?
What becomes the new center of moral life?
QUESTION 3 — “What becomes the foundation of morality in a world without hell?”
John Davis
The foundation is inner awakening.
Morality flows from consciousness — from realizing:
“I cannot harm you without harming myself.”
When people experience the interconnectedness of all beings, empathy becomes instinctive.
The real “kingdom of God” Jesus spoke of is not a place — it’s a state of awareness that naturally expresses itself through compassion.
Karen Armstrong
I believe the next era of spirituality will revolve around the practice of compassion. Not belief, not fear, not doctrine — practice.
When compassion becomes habitual, morality becomes inevitable.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
Science may play a larger role than ever.
Meditation, awe, service, community — all reliably activate neural networks associated with ethical behavior.
In the future, spiritual practices and neuroscience may work together to cultivate moral awareness.
Richard Rohr
The future of morality is union.
When people know they belong — to themselves, to one another, to God — they stop behaving in ways that fracture that belonging.
Love becomes the operating system.
Bart D. Ehrman
And on a practical level, communities will develop shared moral frameworks grounded in empathy, equality, and human dignity — not threats of damnation.
We’ve already seen that working in modern secular democracies.
Krista Tippett — Closing
What has become beautifully clear is that hell was never the source of morality.
Fear can control a society, but it cannot heal a society.
Moral behavior flourishes not through threats, but through belonging, empathy, awakened consciousness, and the deep knowing that our lives are bound together.
If fear ever held the reins, love is now ready to lead.
TOPIC 4: Who Wrote Scripture: Divine Inspiration or Human Politics?
Moderator: Krista Tippett
Participants: John Davis, Bart D. Ehrman, Karen Armstrong, Richard Rohr, Andrew Newberg
Krista Tippett
Tonight we step into a sacred and often controversial tension:
Are scriptures the pure voice of God, or the layered work of human hands, shaped by politics, culture, and survival?
If the Bible, Torah, Qur’an, or any sacred text is both divine and human — how do we understand the balance?
Let’s begin.
QUESTION 1 — “How do we distinguish divine inspiration from human editing?”
John Davis
Scripture is the meeting place of divine insight and human limitation.
The Divine whisper is real — but it always travels through the psychology, bias, trauma, and worldview of the writer.
Imagine sunlight passing through stained glass.
The light is pure, but the colors, shapes, and shadows belong to the window.
Ancient writers captured genuine encounters with the sacred — but they also added their fears, politics, tribal identities, and cultural norms.
So the question isn't:
“Is scripture divine or human?”
The answer is:
“Yes.”
It is both.
The divine inspiration is the spark — the editing is the human fingerprint.
Bart D. Ehrman
As a historian, I see layer upon layer of human hands shaping the biblical texts:
scribes correcting errors, adding clarifications, inserting doctrines, smoothing contradictions.
And yet, even in that very human process, people were genuinely striving to make sense of the divine.
Whether one calls that “inspiration” is a matter of theology — but the human editing is undeniable.
Karen Armstrong
Sacred texts emerged within communities seeking meaning, identity, and ethical guidance.
Inspiration often arises from profound compassion or insight — but political agendas, social tensions, and cultural limitations shape how that insight is recorded.
Divine and human intertwine like threads in a tapestry.
Richard Rohr
The divine speaks in all things — including flawed human words.
But the ego always distorts.
This is why contemplatives say:
“The ego writes the first draft; the spirit rewrites it in the heart of the reader.”
Scripture is not the final word — it is the beginning of the conversation.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
Neurologically, mystical experience is real — measurable, profound.
But once someone tries to describe that experience, their brain must translate it into language shaped by culture.
So inspiration originates in transcendent states, while expression is filtered through cognitive structures.
Krista Tippett
Let’s go deeper into the historical reality.
If scripture contains divine insight but also political shaping, then we must ask:
How did power influence what became “sacred”?
QUESTION 2 — “How did political forces shape scripture as we know it?”
John Davis
Institutions preserved what supported their authority and excluded what threatened it.
When a spiritual teacher says, “The kingdom of God is within you,” that destabilizes hierarchy.
When Jesus elevates women, that threatens patriarchy.
When a text declares God belongs to one tribe, that strengthens nationalism.
So politics didn’t just shape scripture —
politics shaped which scriptures survived.
What we call “canon” is as much a historical archive as a spiritual anthology.
Bart D. Ehrman
Absolutely.
The canon was formed through debates, councils, conflicts, and power struggles.
Some texts were included because they aligned with dominant theological positions; others were excluded because they didn’t.
The Gospel of Thomas, for example, presents a very different Jesus — more mystical, less institutional.
Unsuitable for empire.
Karen Armstrong
And we must remember that ancient societies were deeply hierarchical.
Scriptures were compiled by elites: priests, scribes, court advisors.
They chose texts that stabilized social order.
Revolutionary or egalitarian writings were often suppressed.
Richard Rohr
Whenever empire and religion merge, scripture becomes a tool.
Jesus preached liberation —
Empire preached obedience.
Guess which message gained institutional support?
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
From a cognitive standpoint, people are drawn to narratives that reinforce group identity.
Political leaders leverage that tendency: sacred texts become national, tribal, or ideological symbols.
The result is scripture shaped as much by psychology as by politics.
Krista Tippett
So if scripture is neither purely divine nor purely political, the natural next question becomes:
How should modern people approach these ancient texts?
How do we read them in a way that is both honest and spiritually alive?
QUESTION 3 — “What is the spiritually mature way to read scripture today?”
John Davis
The mature approach is to read scripture as a mirror, not a rulebook.
Ask:
“Where is the divine wisdom here?”
and
“Where is the human limitation here?”
Read with compassion for the writers — and clarity about their context.
Let scripture awaken consciousness, not fear.
And remember:
The highest revelation is not a book —
it is the transformation of the heart.
Karen Armstrong
Scripture should be read empathetically, understanding the suffering and cultural pressures that shaped it.
When we read compassionately, we uncover the universal truths beneath the historical layers.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
From a neurological perspective, contemplative reading — slow, reflective, symbolic — activates brain regions associated with insight and emotional integration.
Literal reading shuts down that process.
Scripture becomes transformative when read with openness, not rigidity.
Richard Rohr
I often say:
“Literalism is the lowest level of meaning.”
Scripture invites us into mystery.
When we stop demanding certainty, the text becomes alive again.
It becomes a doorway, not a cage.
Bart D. Ehrman
Even from a secular standpoint, scripture has extraordinary value — historically, ethically, psychologically.
Reading it with honesty about its human origins doesn’t diminish its power; it deepens it.
Understanding how the text came to be helps us engage it as adults, not children.
Krista Tippett — Closing
What emerges tonight is a profound harmony:
Scripture is divine in its inspiration, human in its expression, political in its formation —
and alive in its ability to transform us when read with maturity.
The sacred does not need perfection to speak.
It only needs openness in the reader.
TOPIC 5: What Is the Next Stage of Human Spiritual Evolution?
Moderator: Krista Tippett
Participants: John Davis, Bart D. Ehrman, Karen Armstrong, Richard Rohr, Andrew Newberg
Krista Tippett
Throughout these conversations, a thread has been quietly weaving itself:
Humanity is changing.
Old structures are crumbling, not out of rebellion, but out of ripeness.
Tonight we ask the question behind all the others:
Where are we heading spiritually?
What is emerging in the human soul?
QUESTION 1 — “What signs tell us humanity is entering a new spiritual stage?”
John Davis
The greatest sign is that fear is losing its grip.
When people stop believing in a cosmic punisher, they naturally begin to explore inner truth.
The new stage of evolution is internal, not external.
Instead of asking, “What does God want from me?” people ask, “Who am I in God?”
You see it in the rise of meditation, trauma healing, non-dual teachings, and the growing intuition that the divine is not “out there” but within consciousness itself.
Humanity is slowly waking up from spiritual childhood.
We’re beginning to perceive our interconnectedness not as a metaphor but as reality.
Karen Armstrong
I see a global hunger for compassion.
People are weary of ideological battles and religious claims of exclusivity.
Younger generations want spirituality that heals, includes, and dignifies.
They don’t want certainty — they want authenticity.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
Neurologically, contemplative practices are becoming mainstream.
Meditation literally reshapes the brain toward empathy, patience, and emotional regulation.
This widespread shift in brain activity may be one of the clearest signs of an emerging spiritual evolution.
Bart D. Ehrman
People are more willing than ever to examine sacred texts critically without abandoning spiritual meaning.
That wasn’t possible a century ago.
This balance between intellectual honesty and spiritual hunger is new — and important.
Richard Rohr
Mysticism, once hidden on the margins, is becoming central.
When contemplation becomes the norm rather than the exception, humanity is entering a new stage of awareness.
Krista Tippett
So let’s go deeper.
If a new stage is emerging, what is dissolving?
What must we leave behind for spiritual evolution to unfold?
QUESTION 2 — “What aspects of old religion must die for evolution to continue?”
John Davis
Three things:
Fear-based theology
Exclusivity and superiority
Externalized authority
Fear must die so that love can guide.
Exclusivity must die so that humanity can recognize its shared divinity.
External authority must die so that inner awakening becomes primary.
The next stage is not about rejecting religion — it’s about outgrowing the parts of religion built on fear rather than consciousness.
Bart D. Ehrman
Historically, many doctrines emerged from political necessity, not divine insight.
A future spirituality requires honesty about origins.
Literalism, dogmatism, and absolute claims must dissolve for genuine growth to occur.
Karen Armstrong
We must relinquish tribalism — the idea that God belongs to one group.
That myth has caused immeasurable harm.
A universal ethic of compassion cannot coexist with divine favoritism.
Richard Rohr
The ego must release its need for certainty.
Religion has often offered black-and-white answers because the ego fears mystery.
True spiritual adulthood requires embracing ambiguity, paradox, and humility.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
We must move beyond neurologically rigid thinking — the kind produced by fear, stress, and fundamentalism.
Trauma healing, contemplative practice, and emotional regulation are essential for evolution.
The brain cannot access higher spiritual states when locked in survival mode.
Krista Tippett
If we let go of fear, literalism, and tribal superiority —
what then replaces them?
What does a mature spirituality look like?
Let’s explore the horizon.
QUESTION 3 — “What will spirituality look like 50–100 years from now?”
John Davis
The future is interior, experiential, and universal.
People will not seek God in dogma but in consciousness.
Not in beliefs, but in presence.
Not in fear, but in compassion.
The next evolution is the recognition that the divine is the fabric of awareness itself.
Spirituality will become less about “joining the right group” and more about awakening to your own deepest nature.
Richard Rohr
We are moving toward non-duality — the recognition that God is in all things and all things are in God.
This dissolves the illusion of separation, which has been the root of so much suffering.
Karen Armstrong
I imagine global networks of compassion-based communities, interfaith dialogues, and shared ethical commitments.
The future is collaborative spirituality — wisdom drawn from many traditions, practiced with humility.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
Science and spirituality will converge more deeply.
We’ll see research guiding contemplative practice, trauma recovery, and peak experiences.
The boundary between neuroscience and mysticism will blur.
Bart D. Ehrman
Sacred texts will be read symbolically, historically, and psychologically — not literally.
This will free people to appreciate ancient wisdom without being bound by ancient limitations.
Krista Tippett — Closing
What I hear tonight is not just speculation — it is an invitation.
A spirituality rooted in love rather than fear,
in consciousness rather than dogma,
in compassion rather than tribalism.
Humanity is not abandoning God;
we are outgrowing earlier understandings of the divine.
The next stage of evolution is not “more belief.”
It is more awareness.
More belonging.
More love.
Final Thoughts by Krista Tippett
As these conversations draw to a close, what stays with me is the subtle, profound reassurance that spiritual evolution is not something distant, theoretical, or confined to mystics and theologians. It is happening in the ordinary, intimate moments of our lives — in the ways we soften after suffering, in the courage it takes to question old certainties, in the quiet instinct to care for someone who is not like us. It lives in the questions we ask when the world grows louder, and in the silence we turn toward when our old answers no longer sustain us.
What John Davis and our fellow thinkers have illuminated is that humanity is not moving away from the sacred. We are maturing into it. Theologies born in fear are giving way to a spirituality grounded in presence, integrity, and compassion. Dogma is loosening so that deeper truths can breathe. And the divine — no longer seen only as an external figure of authority — is being recognized as the luminous field of consciousness in which all of us live and move and awaken.
If there is a future for religion, it will not be built on the fear of hell or the need for certainty. It will be rooted in the dignity of every human being, in the healing of trauma, in the contemplative practices that make us more spacious, more truthful, more alive. It will be carried not by institutions alone, but by individuals who embody love in ways too ordinary to name and too powerful to ignore.
Spiritual evolution does not ask us to abandon what came before, but to carry its wisdom forward with humility and courage. It invites us to sit with mystery without rushing to solve it, to honor difference without losing compassion, and to trust that the human story is bending — however slowly — toward greater awareness and greater belonging.
The divine has been whispering to humanity for thousands of years. Now, perhaps more clearly than ever, we are learning to listen.
Short Bios:
Krista Tippett
Krista Tippett is an award-winning journalist, Peabody recipient, and creator of On Being, known for her deep, contemplative interviews on spirituality, ethics, and the human condition. With a background in diplomacy and theology, she explores the intersections of meaning, compassion, and civic life.
John Davis
John Davis is a spiritual teacher and researcher known for his explorations of consciousness, mystical experience, and the evolution of human spirituality. His work bridges psychology, comparative religion, and contemplative practice, inviting readers to examine the inner life as the foundation of spiritual growth.
Bart D. Ehrman
Bart D. Ehrman is a leading New Testament scholar and historian of early Christianity. A distinguished professor at the University of North Carolina, he is known for his clear explanations of how scripture was formed and how historical contexts shaped religious beliefs.
Karen Armstrong
Karen Armstrong is a globally respected religious historian and bestselling author whose work spans Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Eastern traditions. She emphasizes compassion as the heart of all spiritual paths and is known for bringing clarity and empathy to complex religious histories.
Richard Rohr
Richard Rohr is a Franciscan priest and internationally known spiritual writer whose teachings center on contemplation, non-duality, and emotional maturity. Founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation, he encourages a spirituality grounded in inner transformation rather than fear or dogma.
Andrew Newberg, M.D.
Dr. Andrew Newberg is a pioneer in the field of neurotheology, studying how spiritual experiences affect the brain. His research explores meditation, prayer, transcendent states, and the biology of compassion, offering scientific insight into the nature of human spirituality.
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