Welcome, everyone, to another incrediblesession of Imaginary Talks!
Today, we have a truly special conversation that delves into the heart of mental toughness and personal growth. We're bringing together some of the most respected voices in the field, and it's going to be a powerful exchange of ideas.
Moderating our discussion is Nick Sasaki, who will be guiding us through this insightful conversation.
At the center of this talk is David Goggins, a man who personifies resilience, grit, and the relentless pursuit of excellence. His latest book, 'Never Finished,' has inspired millions around the world to push beyond their limits and embrace the challenges of life head-on.
Joining David are top mental toughness coaches who have each made a significant impact in their own right. We have Tony Robbins, whose groundbreaking work on mindset and emotional mastery has transformed countless lives.
Jocko Willink, a former Navy SEAL officer, brings his unparalleled insights on discipline and leadership.
Tim Grover, the coach behind the mental toughness of sports legends like Michael Jordan, adds his perspective on what it takes to be relentless.
Mark Divine, founder of SEALFIT, offers his expertise on building mental and spiritual resilience.
Finally, Todd Herman, known for his 'Alter Ego Effect,' provides his strategies for high performance and overcoming inner barriers.
This is an imaginary conversation that transcends the ordinary, bringing together these thought leaders to explore the deep, often untapped, reservoirs of human potential.
So, sit back, open your mind, and prepare to be inspired by the wisdom and insights that will unfold in this unique gathering of minds!
The Power of Mental Resilience
Nick Sasaki: Gentlemen, thank you for coming together for this discussion on mental toughness. Our first topic is "The Power of Mental Resilience." Let's dive in. David, you’re known for pushing the boundaries of mental resilience. How do you define this concept, and why is it so crucial?
David Goggins: Mental resilience, for me, is the ability to endure, adapt, and thrive in the face of adversity. It's not just about surviving tough times—it's about coming out stronger on the other side. Resilience is forged through suffering, by putting yourself in situations where you have no choice but to find a way to succeed. It’s about doing what others won’t, so you can achieve what others can’t.
Jocko Willink: I agree, David. Resilience is built through discipline and consistency. It’s about doing what needs to be done, even when you don’t feel like it. In the SEAL teams, we had a saying: “Discipline equals freedom.” The more disciplined you are in your daily life, the more freedom you have to overcome obstacles when they arise. Mental resilience is a product of that discipline—it’s what allows you to stay the course when things get tough.
Tim Grover: Absolutely, Jocko. Mental resilience also involves having an unbreakable focus on your goal. It’s about being relentless, not letting anything distract you from your mission. In my experience training athletes like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, I saw firsthand how their mental resilience was the foundation of their success. They didn’t just withstand pressure—they thrived under it, because they were so focused on their goals that nothing could shake them.
Mark Divine: That focus is critical, Tim. Mental resilience also requires a certain level of self-awareness and mindfulness. In my SEALFIT program, we train individuals not just to be physically tough, but to be mentally and spiritually resilient as well. This involves developing a strong sense of purpose and aligning your actions with that purpose. When you know why you’re doing something, it’s easier to push through the pain and the discomfort.
Tony Robbins: Mark, I’d add that mental resilience is also about managing your emotional state. Life will throw challenges your way, and how you respond emotionally can make all the difference. I teach people to master their emotions, to find empowering meanings in their experiences, and to use those meanings to fuel their resilience. When you control your emotions, you control your life, and that’s a huge part of staying resilient.
Todd Herman: I love that perspective, Tony. Building on that, I often talk about creating an alter ego—a persona that embodies the traits you need to be resilient. This alter ego can help you access a different part of yourself, one that’s capable of handling whatever challenges come your way. It’s like putting on mental armor. When you adopt this mindset, you’re not just reacting to adversity; you’re actively shaping how you confront it.
Nick Sasaki: It’s fascinating to hear how each of you approaches mental resilience from different angles. Whether it’s through discipline, focus, mindfulness, emotional mastery, or creating an alter ego, it’s clear that mental resilience is the backbone of success in any field. As we continue this conversation, we’ll see how these principles apply to the other aspects of mental toughness. Let’s move on to our next topic.
Discipline and Consistency
Nick Sasaki: Moving on to our second topic, "Discipline and Consistency," we’ve touched on these concepts briefly, but let’s dig deeper. Jocko, you’ve often said that “Discipline equals freedom.” Can you explain how this idea ties into achieving long-term success and mental toughness?
Jocko Willink: Absolutely, Nick. Discipline is the foundation of everything. It’s about making decisions based on your long-term goals rather than your short-term emotions. Every day, you have a choice: Do what needs to be done or take the easy route. Discipline is choosing the harder path because you know it’s the right one. And consistency is the practice of applying that discipline day in and day out, without fail. It’s not glamorous; it’s not exciting; it’s hard work. But that’s what creates freedom in the long run. Freedom to succeed, freedom to push your limits, freedom to be the person you want to be.
Tim Grover: I couldn’t agree more, Jocko. In my experience working with elite athletes, the ones who achieve greatness aren’t necessarily the most talented, but they are the most disciplined. They show up every single day, put in the work, and never make excuses. Consistency breeds success because it allows you to build momentum. The more you do something, the better you get at it, and that momentum can carry you through when motivation fades. It’s easy to be disciplined when things are going well; the real test is staying consistent when things get tough.
Mark Divine: Discipline and consistency are also about integrity—doing what you said you would do, even when no one is watching. In the SEAL teams, we’re trained to operate with honor and integrity in everything we do. That means being disciplined in your thoughts, actions, and decisions, no matter the circumstances. It’s about building a strong internal code that guides you through adversity. When you’re consistent in upholding that code, you create a solid foundation that can withstand any challenge.
David Goggins: Discipline is everything to me. It’s about holding yourself accountable and not letting yourself off the hook. When I was training for ultra-endurance races, there were days I didn’t want to get out of bed, but I did it anyway. That’s what separates the average from the exceptional—the willingness to be disciplined when it’s hard. Consistency is what allows you to turn discipline into a habit, and habits are what lead to real, lasting change. Without discipline and consistency, you’ll always be stuck in the same place, wishing for more but never achieving it.
Tony Robbins: One thing I’d add is that discipline and consistency are closely linked to your standards. What do you demand of yourself? What level do you refuse to fall below? When you raise your standards and commit to them with discipline, consistency naturally follows. You’re no longer negotiating with yourself about whether you’ll follow through—you just do it because that’s who you are. And when you live at that higher standard consistently, your entire life elevates.
Todd Herman: It’s also about creating systems and routines that support your goals. Discipline doesn’t just happen—it’s something you cultivate by setting up your environment for success. That could mean scheduling your day down to the minute, having accountability partners, or using tools like habit trackers to stay on course. When you create these systems, discipline becomes easier to maintain because you’re not relying solely on willpower—you’ve built a structure that keeps you aligned with your goals.
Nick Sasaki: Discipline and consistency clearly play a crucial role in building mental toughness and achieving long-term success. It’s about making the tough choices, sticking to your commitments, and setting up your life in a way that supports your goals. These principles are not just theoretical—they’re actionable strategies that anyone can apply to their own lives. As we continue, let’s see how these concepts integrate with our next topic.
Overcoming Fear and Self-Doubt
Nick Sasaki: Our next topic is "Overcoming Fear and Self-Doubt." These are emotions everyone encounters, no matter how successful they are. David, you’ve spoken extensively about facing your fears head-on. How do you approach fear and self-doubt in your life?
David Goggins: Fear and self-doubt are natural, but they’re also the biggest obstacles standing between you and your potential. For me, it’s about confronting them directly. When I was training for SEALs, I was full of self-doubt—I didn’t think I was good enough, strong enough, or smart enough. But instead of running from those feelings, I leaned into them. I made fear my friend because it showed me where I needed to improve. The more I faced my fears, the more I realized that they were just illusions—barriers I had put up in my own mind. Overcoming them wasn’t about eliminating fear but about acting in spite of it.
Jocko Willink: I think a lot of people misunderstand fear and self-doubt. They see them as weaknesses, but in reality, they’re just information. Fear is your mind’s way of telling you that something is at stake, and self-doubt is a sign that you care about the outcome. The key is not to let these emotions paralyze you. In the military, we’re taught to assess the situation, make a plan, and then take action. The same applies to fear and self-doubt—acknowledge them, but don’t let them dictate your actions. Instead, use them to sharpen your focus and prepare yourself better.
Tim Grover: Fear and self-doubt can also be powerful motivators. I’ve worked with athletes who used their fear of failure to drive them to work harder, train longer, and stay more focused than anyone else. The trick is to reframe these emotions—don’t see them as something negative; see them as fuel. Fear of not reaching your potential, of letting down your team, or of failing on the big stage—these are all valid fears, but they can push you to levels you didn’t think were possible. The key is to channel that fear into something productive.
Mark Divine: I see fear and self-doubt as opportunities for growth. In my SEALFIT program, we deliberately put people in situations where they have to confront their fears—whether it’s a tough physical challenge or something that pushes them mentally. The goal is to teach them that fear is not something to avoid but something to embrace. When you face your fears repeatedly, you build a kind of psychological armor. You learn that you can handle more than you thought, and that builds confidence. Self-doubt is similar—when you push through it and succeed, you rewire your brain to believe in your capabilities.
Tony Robbins: Overcoming fear and self-doubt is also about shifting your focus. If you focus on what you’re afraid of, that fear will grow. But if you focus on the outcome you want, on the person you need to become to achieve that outcome, your fear starts to diminish. I teach people to ask themselves empowering questions: What’s great about this challenge? How can I use this fear to my advantage? These questions change your perspective and put you in a state where you’re ready to take action, despite the fear.
Todd Herman: One practical strategy I often use with clients is to identify their “gremlins”—those inner voices of fear and self-doubt that hold them back. Once you identify these gremlins, you can challenge them. Ask yourself, “Is this thought really true? Where’s the evidence?” Often, you’ll find that these thoughts are baseless. Then, create a counter-narrative—what would your alter ego say? This helps you take control of your mindset and act from a place of strength rather than fear.
Nick Sasaki: It’s clear that fear and self-doubt are not enemies to be defeated but forces to be understood and harnessed. By confronting these emotions, reframing them, and taking decisive action, we can transform fear and self-doubt from obstacles into stepping stones on the path to success. Let’s now transition to our fourth topic, where we’ll explore another essential aspect of mental toughness.
The Role of Mindset in Achieving Success
Nick Sasaki: Our fourth topic is "The Role of Mindset in Achieving Success." It’s often said that success is 90% mental and 10% physical. Tony, you’ve spoken a lot about the importance of mindset in your work. Can you share your perspective on how mindset influences success?
Tony Robbins: Absolutely, Nick. Mindset is everything. It shapes how you perceive the world, how you interpret your experiences, and ultimately, how you act. Your mindset determines whether you see obstacles as barriers or as opportunities to grow. A person with a fixed mindset believes their abilities and intelligence are static, which limits their potential. But someone with a growth mindset believes they can develop their abilities through hard work and perseverance. This belief opens the door to continuous learning and improvement, which is essential for achieving success.
Mark Divine: Mindset is also what keeps you in the fight when things get tough. In the SEAL teams, we call it “staying in the game.” It’s the mental toughness to push forward, no matter what. A strong mindset is about having a clear vision of your mission and committing to it with everything you’ve got. It’s about maintaining focus and not letting distractions, doubts, or setbacks derail you. In many ways, your mindset is your most powerful weapon—more than physical strength or even tactical skills.
David Goggins: For me, mindset is about creating a calloused mind—one that’s toughened through repeated exposure to discomfort and adversity. Every time you push through pain, you’re conditioning your mind to handle more. It’s like building up calluses on your hands from hard work. Over time, the things that used to break you down no longer have that power. Your mindset becomes bulletproof, and you realize there’s nothing you can’t overcome. That’s what drives success—the knowledge that no matter how hard it gets, you have the mental fortitude to keep going.
Jocko Willink: I’d add that a successful mindset is also about extreme ownership. It’s the mentality that says, “I’m responsible for everything in my life.” When you adopt this mindset, you stop making excuses and start taking action. You realize that your success is not dependent on external factors but on your own decisions and actions. This level of accountability empowers you to make the changes necessary to achieve your goals. It’s a mindset that refuses to accept failure and instead looks for solutions, no matter how difficult the situation.
Tim Grover: Mindset is also about being relentless—never settling for less than what you’re capable of. In my book "Relentless," I talk about the “Cleaner” mentality—the mindset of those who are at the top of their game. They’re not satisfied with just being good; they’re obsessed with being the best. They don’t wait for opportunities; they create them. They don’t let others dictate their success; they take control of it. This relentless mindset is what separates the elite from everyone else. It’s about constantly raising the bar for yourself and never backing down, no matter the challenges.
Todd Herman: I often work with high performers to develop what I call the “heroic self”—an alter ego that embodies the mindset needed to achieve their goals. This is about consciously choosing the thoughts, beliefs, and behaviors that align with your success. When you step into this alter ego, you’re adopting a mindset that is fearless, focused, and driven. This allows you to perform at your highest level, even in high-pressure situations. It’s a powerful tool for overcoming mental blocks and pushing past your limits.
Nick Sasaki: What stands out here is that while each of you approaches mindset differently, you all agree on its central role in achieving success. Whether it’s through cultivating a growth mindset, embracing extreme ownership, developing a calloused mind, or stepping into a heroic self, the power of mindset cannot be overstated. It shapes your reality and determines how far you can go. As we wrap up this discussion, let’s move on to our final topic, which ties together many of the concepts we’ve discussed so far.
The Importance of Taking Action
Nick Sasaki: For our final topic, let’s discuss "The Importance of Taking Action." We’ve talked about mental resilience, discipline, overcoming fear, and mindset. But all of these principles hinge on one critical element: action. Tim, you’ve coached some of the most successful athletes in the world. How crucial is action in turning mental toughness into tangible results?
Tim Grover: Action is everything, Nick. You can have the best mindset in the world, but if you don’t act on it, it’s worthless. In my work with athletes like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, what set them apart wasn’t just their talent or their mental toughness—it was their relentless commitment to action. They didn’t just think about what they wanted to achieve; they took massive, consistent action every single day to make it happen. Action is what turns potential into reality. It’s the bridge between where you are and where you want to be.
David Goggins: I agree with Tim. For me, action is about getting out of your head and doing what needs to be done, no matter how you feel. There were many days when I didn’t feel like running or training, but I did it anyway. That’s where the growth happens—in those moments when you push yourself to act, even when it’s uncomfortable or difficult. Action isn’t always glamorous, but it’s necessary. You can’t think your way to success—you have to grind your way there through consistent, determined action.
Jocko Willink: Exactly, David. In the military, we have a saying: “Move or die.” It’s as simple as that. Action is the antidote to fear, doubt, and hesitation. When you take action, you create momentum, and that momentum can carry you through even the toughest situations. Planning and preparation are important, but they mean nothing without execution. The difference between success and failure often comes down to whether or not you take action. It’s about making the decision to move forward and not letting anything stop you.
Mark Divine: Action is also about taking small, deliberate steps toward your goal every day. In my SEALFIT training, we emphasize the importance of incremental progress. You don’t climb a mountain in one leap—you do it step by step, consistently moving forward. This approach not only makes large goals more manageable, but it also builds confidence and resilience over time. Action doesn’t have to be grandiose; it just has to be consistent and intentional.
Tony Robbins: I like to say that knowledge is not power—knowledge is potential power. It only becomes powerful when you apply it. Taking action is what separates those who achieve their goals from those who don’t. It’s about using the resources you have, making decisions, and moving forward. Even if you make mistakes along the way, action is what gives you the opportunity to learn and grow. The worst thing you can do is stay stagnant, paralyzed by indecision or fear. When you take action, you’re signaling to yourself and the world that you’re committed to your success.
Todd Herman: One of the biggest barriers to action is overthinking. People get caught up in analysis paralysis, where they’re so focused on making the “perfect” move that they end up making no move at all. That’s why I advocate for creating a system of action triggers—small cues or habits that prompt you to take immediate action. For example, if you’re struggling to get started on a big project, set a timer for 10 minutes and just start working. Often, the hardest part is getting started, and once you’re in motion, it’s easier to keep going.
Nick Sasaki: It’s clear that taking action is the catalyst that brings everything together. Without action, even the best mindset, discipline, and resilience are just concepts. It’s the consistent, intentional steps you take that ultimately lead to success. As we conclude this discussion, I want to thank each of you for sharing your insights and experiences. The principles you’ve discussed today are invaluable for anyone looking to cultivate mental toughness and achieve their goals. Let’s remember that it’s not just about thinking or planning—it’s about doing. Thank you all for your time and wisdom.
Short Bios:
David Goggins: A former Navy SEAL and ultra-endurance athlete, David Goggins is renowned for his mental toughness, resilience, and ability to push beyond physical and psychological limits. His books, including Never Finished and Can't Hurt Me, have inspired millions to embrace discomfort and challenge themselves to achieve greatness.
Tony Robbins: A world-renowned life coach, author, and motivational speaker, Tony Robbins is known for his work in personal development, mindset, and emotional mastery. His seminars and books, like Awaken the Giant Within, have helped countless people transform their lives and reach their full potential.
Jocko Willink: A retired Navy SEAL officer, Jocko Willink is a leadership consultant, author, and host of the popular Jocko Podcast. He is best known for his principles of discipline and "extreme ownership," which he teaches through his books and consulting firm, Echelon Front.
Tim Grover: A legendary coach to elite athletes like Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, Tim Grover is known for his focus on mental toughness and relentless pursuit of excellence. He is the author of Relentless and Winning, where he shares his strategies for achieving peak performance.
Mark Divine: A former Navy SEAL and founder of SEALFIT, Mark Divine is a leadership coach and author who specializes in building mental, physical, and spiritual resilience. His programs and books, like Unbeatable Mind, focus on developing warrior-like toughness and clarity of purpose.
Todd Herman: A high-performance coach and author, Todd Herman is best known for his "Alter Ego Effect," a concept that helps individuals unlock their full potential by stepping into an empowered version of themselves. His work spans across business, sports, and personal development.
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