Douglas Murray’s The Strange Death of Europe: Top Thinkers Talk

Hello, everyone! I’m so excited to bring you into a deep and eye-opening conversation inspired by Douglas Murray’s The Strange Death of Europe. This book tackles some of the most pressing questions facing modern societies today. It’s not just about Europe; it’s about all of us, about how we navigate culture, identity, and what we might call the soul of a nation. And these aren’t easy questions—they’re tough, sometimes uncomfortable, but absolutely essential.

In his book, Douglas dives into the profound changes that Europe has seen over the last several decades. Mass immigration, multiculturalism, and the shifts in secular and religious values—these are forces that are reshaping societies from the ground up. But with every transformation comes a set of challenges. What happens to a society when it loses touch with its own heritage? How do we balance the compassion of open borders with the practical realities of economic and social stability? And how do we preserve freedom of thought and expression in a world increasingly governed by political correctness?

Today, we’re honored to be joined by some of the world’s brightest and boldest thinkers, who are ready to explore these complex topics head-on. Douglas Murray, of course, will be here, sharing his insights on identity and cohesion. We’ll also hear from Thomas Sowell, who will bring his expertise on economic policy and social dynamics. Milton Friedman—although no longer with us, his ideas on the interplay between free markets and social systems are more relevant than ever. And Angela Merkel, who has firsthand experience navigating the refugee crisis and its impact on Europe’s social fabric. Together, they’ll take us on a journey to examine the real impact of immigration, the nuances of multiculturalism, and whether Europe—and perhaps all of us—can find a way forward in this era of transformation.

So, buckle up! This is an imaginary conversation that will make you think, make you question, and hopefully, inspire you to look at these issues with fresh eyes. Let’s dive into The Strange Death of Europe and explore the future of our societies together.

European Identity Crisis and Cultural Transformation

Nick Sasaki (Moderator): "Good to see you all here. Today, we're diving into a subject that's at the heart of Europe’s future—its identity, its culture, and what it means to be European. Douglas, you've been vocal about Europe losing a sense of itself. Can you open us up?"

Douglas Murray: "Thanks, Nick. I’m convinced that Europe is undergoing a profound identity crisis. It’s not just that traditions are changing, but there’s a palpable sense of fatigue—almost a reluctance to defend the values and heritage that have defined Europe for centuries. We’re talking about societies that once believed in their own ideas and moral frameworks, but today seem hesitant, as if they’re almost apologizing for existing."

Nick Sasaki: "Interesting. It seems like Europe is struggling to stay connected to its own roots. Jordan, you've explored themes of meaning and responsibility extensively. How do you see this shift in Europe?"

Jordan Peterson: "I think Douglas is absolutely right about this loss of conviction. The problem isn’t just demographic or political—it’s psychological. There’s a void where the shared stories and moral structures used to be. When a society loses its unifying beliefs, especially beliefs that grounded people in a sense of meaning and purpose, it’s like removing the foundation of a building. It starts to crumble. And Europe, I believe, is at risk of that crumbling effect."

Nick Sasaki: "So, it’s almost as if Europe’s core values are no longer holding people together. Joseph, you’ve spoken a lot about the power of myth and collective identity. What do you think is missing here?"

Joseph Campbell: "Europe’s story, for centuries, was one of interconnected myths and shared symbols that gave people a sense of belonging—Christianity, classical humanism, the Enlightenment. These were not just stories; they were the fabric of European life, the symbols that united people across borders. But when you lose those symbols or stop believing in them, it’s like severing ties to your own history. Europe’s myths have been replaced by something far more abstract, and perhaps too diluted to anchor people in any meaningful way."

Nick Sasaki: "So, without those myths, without that sense of a shared journey, Europe risks becoming unmoored. Niall, as a historian, you’ve seen the rise and fall of societies and ideas. Where do you see this heading?"

Niall Ferguson: "It’s an intriguing moment in history, Nick. Europe has been here before in some ways—during times of extreme secularization, revolutions, and cultural upheavals. But what’s unique now is the pace of change combined with an almost universal self-doubt. If a civilization stops believing in itself, then it invites transformation from outside or, worse, dissolution from within. When I look at Europe today, I see a lack of continuity, almost a disruption in the fabric of what Europe has historically represented."

Nick Sasaki: "Douglas, Niall’s saying that civilizations need continuity. Do you think Europe can revive this sense of continuity, or is it too far gone?"

Douglas Murray: "Continuity is indeed key, but it requires a conscious effort. That means not just remembering Europe’s cultural history but embracing it unapologetically. Right now, Europe’s elites seem hesitant to encourage any kind of cultural pride, partly out of fear of appearing exclusive or xenophobic. But there’s a difference between healthy pride and arrogance. Without continuity, without a sense of where they come from, people start to feel like strangers in their own countries."

Nick Sasaki: "Jordan, what about from a psychological standpoint? Can Europe’s citizens find that sense of continuity and identity if their institutions aren’t helping them do so?"

Jordan Peterson: "It’s difficult. People need grounding—they need to see themselves as part of something meaningful that stretches beyond just their individual lives. This sense of belonging usually comes from shared values and narratives, which are reinforced by social institutions. If those institutions aren’t promoting a cohesive story, then individuals will struggle to find that continuity on their own. That’s when people start searching for meaning elsewhere, sometimes in ways that can fragment society further."

Nick Sasaki: "Joseph, from a mythological perspective, could Europe create a new shared narrative, or are its traditional stories the only way forward?"

Joseph Campbell: "Myths evolve, but they can’t be forced. They arise organically from a collective need. For Europe, there may be a way to honor its ancient myths while creating new ones that reflect the modern world. However, that requires tapping into genuine values—truths about human nature and existence that resonate universally. Europe has to ask itself what it truly stands for now, and only then can it create new stories that unite rather than divide."

Nick Sasaki: "Niall, looking forward, what do you think are Europe’s options for rediscovering a sense of unity and identity?"

Niall Ferguson: "Europe has two paths, in my view. It can either re-embrace a form of cultural confidence, reasserting the values that have defined it historically—freedom, democracy, and intellectual inquiry—or it can continue down the path of cultural relativism, where all values are seen as equal and none are prioritized. The latter, I believe, could lead to societal fragmentation. The former might be Europe’s best hope for preserving what it has while adapting to the demands of a changing world."

Nick Sasaki: "Douglas, as we wrap this up, if you could give Europe one piece of advice for reclaiming its identity, what would it be?"

Douglas Murray: "Europe needs to learn to appreciate its own legacy without shame. That doesn’t mean ignoring past mistakes, but it does mean seeing its cultural inheritance as something valuable, not something to apologize for. Europe has produced ideas and values that have shaped the modern world for the better. Reclaiming that doesn’t have to mean closing off, but it does mean having the confidence to say, ‘This is who we are, and this is what we believe in.’ Without that, there can be no real unity."

Nick Sasaki: "Thank you, Douglas, Jordan, Joseph, and Niall. This has been an enlightening discussion on Europe’s identity crisis. Clearly, this isn’t just about preserving the past, but about understanding what defines us, and how that shapes our collective future. Thanks, everyone."

This conversation allows each thinker to bring out different dimensions of Europe’s identity crisis, from cultural myths and historical continuity to psychological foundations and future possibilities. The exchange highlights the complexity of Europe's current transformation and leaves open questions on how it might navigate its way forward.

Impact of Mass Immigration on Social Cohesion and Security

Nick Sasaki (Moderator): "Welcome, everyone. Today, we're tackling a critical question: how is mass immigration shaping Europe's social cohesion and security? Douglas, you’ve warned about the destabilizing effects of unchecked immigration. Why don’t you start us off?”

Douglas Murray: “Thanks, Nick. Immigration isn’t inherently a bad thing, but the scale we’re seeing now is unprecedented, especially in Europe. Many of the migrants coming in have very different cultural backgrounds, which complicates integration. When societies grow too quickly in diversity without cohesion, social trust breaks down, and that opens the door to fragmentation and even violence. It’s not just a question of numbers, but of values—and whether newcomers can or will adopt the existing norms of their host countries.”

Nick Sasaki: "So, Douglas, you’re saying that the scale and speed are the main concerns. Samuel, you’ve written about civilizations and cultural clashes. Do you think Europe is experiencing this ‘clash of civilizations’ with mass immigration?”

Samuel P. Huntington: “Absolutely. What we’re seeing aligns with my theory that civilizations—distinct cultural identities—are not always compatible. Europe’s values are deeply rooted in a Western, secular tradition, which contrasts with the values held by many immigrants, particularly from the Islamic world. When two cultures with fundamentally different worldviews meet on such a massive scale, tensions are inevitable. Integration isn’t just about adapting to the economy; it’s about absorbing a culture, and not all values can coexist easily.”

Nick Sasaki: "Ayaan, you’ve been vocal about the challenges of integrating non-Western immigrants into Western societies, especially regarding cultural values. What are your thoughts here?”

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: “Douglas and Samuel raise crucial points. The issue isn’t only about economic integration—it’s about social and cultural integration, which is far more complex. From my own experience, I know that adapting to Western values can be challenging, particularly for those coming from societies with different views on freedom, women’s rights, and secularism. Europe has been somewhat naive in assuming that integration would happen naturally. If there’s no effort from both sides, integration fails, and social cohesion is compromised. The consequences are visible in the rise of isolated, self-contained communities across Europe.”

Nick Sasaki: "Ralph, you’ve studied security and military issues extensively. How does immigration tie into security concerns from your perspective?”

Ralph Peters: “Immigration, when it’s poorly managed, can become a national security issue. It’s not just about the possibility of violent extremism, though that’s a very real threat. It’s about how a society functions as a whole. When communities are insular and disconnected, people are more vulnerable to radicalization. This isn’t a hypothetical risk—we’ve seen it play out in Europe. National security isn’t just about guarding borders; it’s about maintaining internal cohesion, which is why integration is so essential.”

Nick Sasaki: "Douglas, Ralph is emphasizing the link between social fragmentation and security risks. Do you see any path forward for Europe to address this?"

Douglas Murray: “The first step, in my view, is honesty. Europe’s leaders need to acknowledge the challenges that come with large-scale immigration. The ‘open arms’ approach, while humanitarian in intention, has neglected practical concerns. Europe has to be realistic about what it can handle and create policies that encourage integration, not isolation. This means being clear about cultural expectations and what it means to be part of a European society.”

Nick Sasaki: "Samuel, if Europe is experiencing a ‘clash of civilizations,’ as you mentioned, can that clash ever be reconciled, or is it inevitably destructive?”

Samuel P. Huntington: “Reconciliation is possible, but it requires a mutual understanding that’s very difficult to achieve on a large scale. The host culture needs to feel secure in its own identity, while newcomers must be willing to adapt. Without this balance, clashes will intensify. Europe has historically shown a remarkable ability to absorb and adapt different influences, but this requires a conscious effort and policies that don’t shy away from these challenges.”

Nick Sasaki: "Ayaan, do you see any cultural values that Europe can hold on to as it navigates this integration process?”

Ayaan Hirsi Ali: “Absolutely. Values like freedom of expression, equality, and secularism are central to Europe’s identity, and they’re worth preserving. If Europe is going to remain Europe, it has to uphold these principles without apology. Integration should mean embracing these values. But it’s also about creating an environment where immigrants can adapt at a pace that respects their backgrounds while encouraging this cultural shift. That’s a difficult line to walk, but it’s essential.”

Nick Sasaki: "Ralph, if Europe doesn’t manage to integrate these communities, what do you think the security future looks like?”

Ralph Peters: “Honestly, the risks will grow. If Europe can’t achieve a coherent social fabric, isolated communities could become breeding grounds for radical ideologies. We’re already seeing tensions between different groups, and without integration, it will only escalate. But it’s not too late—clear policies, education, and economic opportunity are essential to mitigate these risks. Security isn’t just about force; it’s about creating a stable, unified society.”

Nick Sasaki: "Thank you, Douglas, Samuel, Ayaan, and Ralph. It’s clear that Europe’s path forward will require balancing compassion with pragmatism, and understanding how cultural integration affects every layer of society. Thanks for this insightful discussion."

In this conversation, each thinker examines the impacts of immigration on European cohesion and security from different angles—cultural, political, and security-related—providing a nuanced view of Europe’s complex immigration landscape.

Multiculturalism, Integration, and the Decline of Secularism

Nick Sasaki (Moderator): "Welcome, everyone. Today, we’re exploring the challenges and possibilities around multiculturalism, integration, and secularism in Europe. Douglas, you’ve expressed concerns about how multiculturalism is affecting Europe’s unity. Could you start us off?”

Douglas Murray: “Thanks, Nick. I think one of the core issues here is that multiculturalism, as practiced today, often lacks a clear goal. It’s as though Europe’s leaders think society will become more harmonious just by bringing different cultures together. But what’s often overlooked is that without a shared framework or set of values, these groups may not cohere. Instead, they can become isolated, sometimes in ways that weaken societal bonds. Multiculturalism without integration risks fragmenting societies rather than uniting them.”

Nick Sasaki: "So, Douglas, you’re saying that multiculturalism without a unifying core can lead to division. Francis, you’ve written a lot about identity and liberal democracy. Do you think multiculturalism is compatible with a unified democratic society?”

Francis Fukuyama: “That’s the big question, Nick. I believe multiculturalism can work, but it requires a common set of civic values that everyone agrees to uphold. Democracy thrives when people feel they’re part of a shared community with common goals. But if society is too fragmented, if people identify primarily with their cultural or ethnic groups rather than as citizens, it becomes harder to maintain that unity. Europe’s challenge, I think, is to foster a civic identity that respects diversity but also emphasizes the responsibilities that come with being part of a single society.”

Nick Sasaki: "Zygmunt, you’ve studied postmodernity and identity. How does today’s approach to multiculturalism align with the idea of identity in a postmodern world?”

Zygmunt Bauman: “Well, Nick, we’re living in what I call ‘liquid modernity,’ where identities are fluid, changeable, and often fragmented. People today don’t necessarily feel bound to a single, overarching identity. This can be both liberating and destabilizing. In Europe, this fluidity means that multiculturalism is not just about coexisting cultures but also about individuals constantly reshaping their sense of self. However, this fluidity can make it difficult for societies to cultivate a stable, cohesive identity. Without some form of anchoring—be it cultural, civic, or spiritual—society risks losing its center.”

Nick Sasaki: "Jonathan, as a religious leader, you’ve talked about the importance of shared values in a diverse society. How do you see multiculturalism and secularism coexisting in Europe today?”

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks: “In my view, multiculturalism can coexist with secularism, but it requires a commitment to a common moral framework. Secularism doesn’t mean value-neutrality; it means having space for different beliefs while committing to the core values that hold society together. Historically, Europe’s secularism was deeply shaped by Judeo-Christian ethics. If we remove that ethical foundation entirely, secularism can lose its coherence. Multiculturalism will only succeed if there’s a shared understanding of respect, tolerance, and civic duty—principles that allow diverse communities to flourish without falling into isolation or antagonism.”

Nick Sasaki: "Douglas, Jonathan raises an interesting point about values. Do you think Europe has the ability to revive a cohesive value system in a multicultural setting?”

Douglas Murray: “It’s possible, but it’s a difficult path. There’s a reluctance in Europe to assert its own values for fear of being seen as imposing or exclusive. But if Europe can’t define what it stands for, it’s very hard to ask newcomers to embrace anything cohesive. Europe has values worth preserving, and I think these values—democracy, free speech, individual rights—could form the basis of a shared identity, but it requires confidence and clarity.”

Nick Sasaki: "Francis, what’s your take? Can Europe find that balance between respecting cultural diversity and maintaining a shared civic identity?”

Francis Fukuyama: “Yes, I think Europe can, but it will require strong institutions and leadership committed to fostering a European identity that’s inclusive but grounded. It’s about creating a civic nationalism rather than an ethnic one—a nationalism that’s based on shared values rather than cultural homogeneity. Europe has the structures for this, but it needs to be more proactive in promoting these unifying values, especially in education, media, and policy.”

Nick Sasaki: "Zygmunt, you often speak of the fluidity of identity. Can Europe’s diverse populations find unity in this fluid world?”

Zygmunt Bauman: “They can, but it will take an evolution in how we understand identity. People need a sense of belonging, but in liquid modernity, that belonging may look different. Europe may need to embrace a model of identity that’s flexible enough to allow for multiple affiliations—being part of a cultural community, a religious group, and yet also strongly identifying as a European citizen. It’s about layered identities, which reflect modern realities while still giving people a sense of connection.”

Nick Sasaki: "Jonathan, as we wrap up, what advice would you give Europe on finding common ground within its diversity?”

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks: “Europe should remember that diversity can be a strength, but only when it’s guided by shared values that allow people to feel secure and respected. My advice would be for Europe to focus on education, on instilling a sense of civic duty, and on ensuring that secularism remains a space for all to contribute to the common good. Multiculturalism doesn’t have to mean division, but it does require constant effort to keep communities connected.”

Nick Sasaki: "Thank you, Douglas, Francis, Zygmunt, and Jonathan. It’s clear that the balance between multiculturalism, integration, and secularism isn’t easy, but there’s a way forward. This has been a profound conversation on the values and identities that shape society. Thank you all."

This conversation brings out the complexities and possibilities of multiculturalism in a secular Europe. Each thinker contributes insights on how shared values, identity fluidity, and civic duty could create a cohesive society while respecting diversity.

The Role of Political Correctness, Media, and Fear of Criticism

Nick Sasaki (Moderator): “Welcome, everyone. Today, we’re diving into a critical topic—the influence of political correctness, the role of the media, and the fear of open criticism in Europe. Douglas, this is something you’ve addressed head-on in your work. Could you start us off?”

Douglas Murray: “Thanks, Nick. In my view, political correctness has become one of the greatest threats to open debate in Europe. The fear of offending certain groups or going against the popular narrative has led to a kind of self-censorship. People don’t feel free to speak honestly about issues like immigration or cultural identity without fearing backlash. When societies shy away from addressing real problems, they allow those issues to fester, often leading to greater division.”

Nick Sasaki: "So, you’re saying that political correctness can actually prevent us from solving the issues it’s trying to avoid. Camille, you’ve been outspoken about the limitations of political correctness. How do you see its influence here?”

Camille Paglia: “Political correctness, as it’s practiced today, is fundamentally anti-intellectual. It discourages people from engaging in real inquiry or from taking creative risks. When people start policing language so aggressively, they’re not protecting anyone—they’re stifling growth, discussion, and, ultimately, progress. In Europe, where there’s already a fear of discussing certain topics openly, political correctness amplifies that fear, reinforcing a sanitized public discourse that serves no one.”

Nick Sasaki: "Noam, you’ve critiqued the media for decades. How do you see the media’s role in shaping these politically correct narratives?”

Noam Chomsky: “The media plays a crucial role in maintaining the status quo by setting boundaries around acceptable discourse. In Europe, as in other parts of the world, the media often mirrors the interests of those in power, shaping public opinion by what it chooses to emphasize—or ignore. Political correctness is part of this process. When certain viewpoints are deemed unacceptable, it restricts our ability to engage in honest, meaningful debate. Media has a responsibility to provide a full picture, but too often, it reinforces only one side of the story.”

Nick Sasaki: "Orwell, you warned about the dangers of controlled language and thought. How do you think this trend toward political correctness aligns with your concerns?”

George Orwell: “Political correctness, in many ways, is a modern form of Newspeak. When we restrict language, we also restrict thought. If people cannot express their true ideas because certain words or concepts are off-limits, then it’s only a matter of time before they lose the ability to think freely about those ideas. My concern was always that language could be weaponized to control minds, and in a sense, political correctness has done just that. It’s created an environment where people self-censor, often without even realizing it.”

Nick Sasaki: "Douglas, it sounds like we’re facing a form of self-imposed censorship here. Do you think Europe has the ability to push back against this trend?”

Douglas Murray: “It’s possible, but it requires courage from individuals and leaders alike. There needs to be a movement back toward valuing open debate, even if it means uncomfortable conversations. Europe has a history of intellectual freedom, but that freedom has been slowly eroding under this pressure to conform. If people continue to let political correctness dominate, then the ability to solve real issues will only diminish. However, if enough people start speaking openly, it could inspire a shift.”

Nick Sasaki: "Camille, you’ve often called for more intellectual bravery. How do we encourage people to break free from this fear of criticism?”

Camille Paglia: “We need to remind people that dissent is a strength, not a weakness. Real progress has always come from challenging ideas, not from accepting them without question. Universities, the media, and cultural institutions need to be places where ideas can be explored freely. Europe, with its tradition of philosophical inquiry, should lead the way in reclaiming this intellectual freedom. But people need to feel that it’s not only okay to question things, but necessary.”

Nick Sasaki: "Noam, do you think the media can reform itself to play a more balanced role in this?”

Noam Chomsky: “The media would need to commit to transparency and genuine diversity of perspectives. But it’s not easy, because so much of the media is influenced by economic and political interests. For the media to play a constructive role, it would need to become more accountable to the public rather than to corporate or political agendas. It would mean exposing people to perspectives they might not agree with, and letting them make up their own minds.”

Nick Sasaki: "Orwell, do you see any way for individuals to resist this pressure to conform their language and thought?”

George Orwell: “Resistance begins with language. People need to be vigilant about the words they use and the ideas they accept. Even small acts, like choosing to use precise language or questioning narratives, can make a difference. Ultimately, the individual’s duty is to remain free in their own mind and resist the urge to conform simply for the sake of approval. It’s about preserving the ability to think critically, even when others around you are not.”

Nick Sasaki: "Douglas, as we close, what would you say to Europeans who feel silenced by political correctness?”

Douglas Murray: “I’d say this: Don’t be afraid to speak up. The more people who push back against the constraints of political correctness, the less power it holds. The only way to counter this culture of fear is with courage. If people refuse to let political correctness dominate, then honest discussions can return, and real progress can be made.”

Nick Sasaki: "Thank you, Douglas, Camille, Noam, and Orwell. This conversation sheds light on the importance of open dialogue and the dangers of letting political correctness dictate what we can discuss. Let’s hope Europe finds a way back to a more open, intellectually honest conversation. Thank you, everyone."

In this conversation, each thinker brings their perspective on the challenges political correctness and media control pose to freedom of thought and expression in Europe. They explore how these issues impact societal problem-solving and personal courage, emphasizing the importance of open discourse.

Economic and Policy Challenges Linked to Immigration

Nick Sasaki (Moderator): "Thank you all for joining us. Today, we’re discussing the economic and policy challenges linked to immigration, especially in Europe. Douglas, you’ve spoken about how immigration strains public resources. Could you start us off?”

Douglas Murray: “Thanks, Nick. The economic strain of immigration is something that often gets brushed under the rug in public discussions. While immigration has certainly enriched Europe culturally, there’s a real cost that comes with high levels of migration, particularly on welfare systems and public services. Many European countries are already dealing with aging populations, and they’re using immigration as a way to supplement the workforce. But if immigrants aren’t able to integrate economically, this can become a long-term burden on the system.”

Nick Sasaki: "So you’re saying immigration can help, but only if economic integration is successful. Thomas, you’ve done extensive research on economic policies and their impact on communities. How do you see immigration impacting European economies?”

Thomas Sowell: “Douglas makes a good point. The impact of immigration isn’t just about numbers—it’s about skills, productivity, and, crucially, economic policies that allow people to thrive. If immigrants arrive without the skills needed to contribute immediately, then they may become dependent on welfare systems, which burdens the host country. There’s also the challenge of wage suppression, where an influx of low-skilled labor drives down wages for native workers. Immigration can be a benefit, but only if the policies in place ensure that immigrants are contributing members of society rather than simply adding to the dependency ratio.”

Nick Sasaki: "Milton, as someone who advocated for free markets, how do you think immigration fits into Europe’s economic landscape?”

Milton Friedman: “Well, immigration is an inherently complex issue when it comes to economics. In a truly free market, people should be able to move where they can be most productive. However, Europe’s welfare states complicate that. When you have a social safety net as expansive as Europe’s, open borders become economically unsustainable because they incentivize people to move not just for work, but for benefits. I’ve often said that you can have open borders or a welfare state, but not both, without creating serious economic strain.”

Nick Sasaki: "Angela, you were at the forefront of Europe’s response to the refugee crisis. How do you reconcile the humanitarian aspects of immigration with these economic concerns?”

Angela Merkel: “It’s certainly a challenge, Nick. When the refugee crisis hit, Europe was compelled to act out of a sense of moral duty, and I believe that was the right choice. However, we did underestimate the economic and logistical challenges that would follow. Integrating large numbers of immigrants into the economy takes time and resources. We need policies that support this integration process—like language training and skills development programs—so that immigrants can contribute economically rather than rely on welfare. I believe that with the right policies, immigration can strengthen our economies, but only if we are prepared to invest in integration from the start.”

Nick Sasaki: "Douglas, Angela is talking about investment in integration as a way to support immigrants economically. Do you think Europe is doing enough in this regard?”

Douglas Murray: “Integration programs are essential, but I’m not sure they’re enough on their own. The challenge is that integration requires more than just language and job training; it requires a cultural adjustment that can be very difficult to achieve. In many cases, we’re seeing communities that remain insular and separate, even after years of residence in Europe. Economic support alone won’t create social cohesion, and without that cohesion, Europe’s long-term stability is at risk.”

Nick Sasaki: "Thomas, what’s your take on the policy side of this? Are there economic policies that could better support both native workers and immigrants?”

Thomas Sowell: “The key is to have policies that don’t distort incentives. If the welfare state is too generous, then there’s less incentive for people to become economically self-sufficient, whether they’re immigrants or natives. Policymakers should focus on creating job opportunities and reducing barriers to entry in the workforce. Encouraging entrepreneurship, for instance, would allow immigrants to create businesses and contribute to the economy. Europe should also look at education reform, ensuring that young people—both native and immigrant—have access to skills that are in demand. In the end, it’s about creating a framework where people can succeed on their own terms.”

Nick Sasaki: "Milton, you mentioned the challenge of balancing open borders with a welfare state. How would you advise Europe to handle this balance?”

Milton Friedman: “If Europe wants to sustain its welfare state, it must be selective about immigration. This doesn’t mean closing the doors, but it does mean prioritizing immigrants who have the skills to contribute economically. Additionally, welfare benefits should be structured in a way that encourages work rather than dependency. Immigration policy needs to be closely tied to labor market needs, otherwise Europe risks becoming overwhelmed by the financial demands of an overly generous welfare system.”

Nick Sasaki: "Angela, given your experience, do you think it’s possible for Europe to adopt a more selective immigration policy without compromising its humanitarian values?”

Angela Merkel: “It’s a delicate balance. Europe has a long tradition of human rights and open borders, but we’re also seeing the necessity of pragmatic policies. Selective immigration based on skills is one part of the solution, but we must also continue to offer asylum to those in genuine need. I believe it’s possible to do both, but it requires clear policies, consistent enforcement, and a commitment to integrating those who come here to contribute economically.”

Nick Sasaki: "Douglas, as we wrap up, do you think Europe can find this balance between compassion and economic sustainability?”

Douglas Murray: “I think it’s possible, but only if Europe starts to address these issues openly and honestly. Immigration doesn’t have to be a choice between compassion and practicality, but it does require a willingness to have difficult conversations about limits, costs, and expectations. Europe needs policies that are realistic, both in terms of numbers and in terms of what it can offer newcomers. Without that realism, I fear Europe will continue to struggle with the economic and social pressures of immigration.”

Nick Sasaki: "Thank you, Douglas, Thomas, Milton, and Angela. Today’s conversation reminds us of the complexity of immigration—how it intertwines with economics, policy, and values. Let’s hope Europe finds a path that honors both its compassion and its need for sustainability. Thank you all.”

In this conversation, each thinker brings out a different dimension of the economic and policy challenges surrounding immigration, highlighting the importance of balancing humanitarian values with economic realities and effective integration policies.

Short Bios:

Douglas Murray is a British author, journalist, and political commentator known for his thought-provoking takes on culture, politics, and identity. His book The Strange Death of Europe examines Europe’s cultural and demographic transformation, mass immigration, and the continent’s struggle with its own identity crisis.

Jordan Peterson is a Canadian psychologist, professor, and best-selling author who has gained international recognition for his views on personal responsibility, Western values, and the psychological impact of cultural shifts. His works emphasize the importance of meaning, identity, and maintaining the foundations of Western society.

Joseph Campbell was an American mythologist, writer, and lecturer, famous for his work on comparative mythology and religion. His exploration of universal myths and the "hero’s journey" has deeply influenced discussions on cultural identity and collective storytelling, offering insights into the power of shared symbols and traditions.

Niall Ferguson is a Scottish historian and author specializing in the history of economics, empire, and international relations. Known for his incisive analysis of Western civilization and global trends, Ferguson brings historical context to discussions about Europe’s current challenges and potential futures.

Samuel P. Huntington was an American political scientist best known for his "clash of civilizations" thesis, which argued that cultural and religious differences would be the primary source of conflict in the post-Cold War world. His perspective sheds light on the cultural and ideological divides arising from mass immigration.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a Somali-born Dutch-American activist, writer, and former politician known for her advocacy on issues related to Islam, women's rights, and cultural integration. Her experiences and insights highlight the complexities of integrating non-Western cultural values within European society.

Ralph Peters is a retired U.S. Army officer, author, and commentator on international security and military strategy. His expertise in military history and security adds a unique perspective on the risks associated with social fragmentation and the role of cultural cohesion in national stability.

Francis Fukuyama is an American political scientist, economist, and author best known for his book The End of History and the Last Man, which discusses liberal democracy as the endpoint of societal evolution. His research on identity politics and liberal values contributes to the dialogue on multiculturalism and civic unity.

Zygmunt Bauman was a Polish-British sociologist and philosopher whose work on modernity, postmodernity, and identity provided insights into the complexities of cultural integration in a “liquid” modern society. His theories on the fluidity of identity are central to understanding contemporary multicultural dynamics.

Rabbi Jonathan Sacks was a British Orthodox rabbi, philosopher, and author who wrote extensively on the intersection of religion, culture, and society. He advocated for a balance between secularism and faith, emphasizing shared values as the foundation for a cohesive, diverse society.

Camille Paglia is an American cultural critic, academic, and author known for her outspoken views on political correctness, art, and feminism. Her critiques of modern cultural trends provide a challenging perspective on how political correctness can limit open discussion and stifle intellectual freedom.

Noam Chomsky is an American linguist, philosopher, cognitive scientist, and social critic. Widely regarded as a founder of modern linguistics, Chomsky is also known for his critiques of media and political power, making him a compelling voice on the media’s role in shaping politically correct narratives.

George Orwell was an English novelist, essayist, and critic best known for his works 1984 and Animal Farm, which explore totalitarianism and the manipulation of truth. His concerns about language control and propaganda are central to understanding the dangers of restricting free speech through political correctness.

Thomas Sowell is an American economist, social theorist, and author whose work focuses on economic policy, education, and social inequality. Sowell’s insights into economic incentives and welfare systems add depth to the conversation on immigration and public policy.

Milton Friedman was an American economist and Nobel laureate known for his advocacy of free-market capitalism. His views on welfare, open borders, and economic incentives provide an economic perspective on the impact of immigration within social welfare states.

Angela Merkel is a German politician and former Chancellor who played a central role in managing Europe’s refugee crisis. Her experience balancing humanitarian obligations with the practical challenges of integration brings a firsthand perspective on the economic and social policies surrounding immigration.