Kathie Lee Gifford Reflects on Herod and Mary with Scholars

I’m so excited to take you on a journey today into a fascinating and thought-provoking imaginary conversation that blends history, faith, and the eternal struggle between light and darkness.

In this unique dialogue, we bring together the powerful figures of King Herod and Mary, the mother of Jesus - two individuals whose lives are forever intertwined in the biblical narrative, representing the stark contrast between tyranny and grace, evil and hope.

Joining us in this exploration are some of the most brilliant minds in theology and history: N.T. Wright, Paula Fredriksen, and Ben Witherington III. Alongside them is the ever-talented Kathie Lee Gifford, whose book Herod and Mary serves as the inspiration for our discussion today.

Though this conversation is imaginary, the themes we’ll explore are timeless and profoundly relevant, offering deep insights into the human condition, the nature of power, and the enduring hope that comes from faith.

So, as we step into this imaginative realm, let’s open our hearts and minds to the lessons these ancient stories still have to teach us.

This isn’t just a conversation about the past; it’s about understanding the forces that shape our world today and finding inspiration in the courage and faith that transcend time.

Let’s get started!

Exploring Herod and Mary by Kathie Lee Gifford

Nick Sasaki (Moderator): Welcome, everyone, to this enlightening conversation on Kathie Lee Gifford's book Herod and Mary: The True Story of the Tyrant King and the Mother of the Risen Savior. Our panel today includes the author herself, Kathie Lee Gifford, along with esteemed scholars N.T. Wright, Paula Fredriksen, and Ben Witherington III. We’ll begin by discussing the historical context of King Herod and Mary of Nazareth, as this is foundational to understanding the narrative of the book. Kathie, could you start us off by sharing your thoughts on the significance of setting the story of Herod and Mary within their historical backdrop?

Kathie Lee Gifford: Thank you, Nick. When I embarked on writing this book, it was crucial for me to ground the story in its historical context because the events surrounding Herod and Mary are deeply intertwined with the political and cultural landscape of the time. Herod's reign was marked by immense power struggles, both within his court and in his relationship with Rome. On the other hand, Mary’s life was a testament to faith and obedience, set against the backdrop of a nation yearning for deliverance. Understanding this context allows readers to appreciate the stark contrasts and the divine narrative that unfolds.

N.T. Wright: Kathie, you’ve touched on an essential aspect of biblical interpretation. The historical context of Herod’s rule and Mary’s life provides critical insights into the New Testament narrative. Herod’s political maneuvering and architectural achievements, like the expansion of the Second Temple, were designed to solidify his legacy and demonstrate his loyalty to Rome. However, his paranoia and cruelty, exemplified by the massacre of the innocents, reveal the darker side of his reign. This historical backdrop makes Mary’s story even more poignant. Herod represents the oppressive power structures of the world, while Mary, in her humility and faith, embodies the hope of a new kind of kingdom.

Paula Fredriksen: I agree, N.T. The interplay between Herod’s political ambitions and Mary’s spiritual journey is a fascinating study in contrasts. Herod’s attempts to curry favor with Rome and maintain control over his territory were typical of client kings in the Roman Empire. However, the biblical narrative also paints him as a figure of profound moral failure, consumed by his own fears and insecurities. Mary, by contrast, represents the marginalized and the faithful. Her acceptance of the angel’s message, despite the potential social and personal consequences, highlights the quiet strength and resilience of ordinary people under extraordinary circumstances.

Ben Witherington III: Adding to what Paula and N.T. have said, Herod’s historical context also reflects the broader socio-political tensions of the period. The Jewish people were living under the weight of Roman occupation, and Herod, while a Jew by ancestry, was seen by many as a puppet of the empire. This tension between political power and spiritual authority is central to understanding both Herod’s actions and Mary’s significance. In the Gospels, Herod’s role is brief but impactful, illustrating the lengths to which those in power will go to protect their interests. Meanwhile, Mary’s story unfolds as a counter-narrative to this, emphasizing that true power lies not in political might, but in divine purpose.

Kathie Lee Gifford: That’s precisely the contrast I wanted to highlight in the book. Herod’s pursuit of power ultimately led to his downfall, whereas Mary’s quiet obedience to God’s plan brought forth the Savior. Their stories are set against the same historical backdrop, yet they take such different paths. This not only underscores the dichotomy between human ambition and divine will but also illustrates how God’s plan prevails even in the midst of great evil and turmoil.

Nick Sasaki: This discussion has really opened up the complexities of the historical context in which these two figures lived. The tension between Herod’s political machinations and Mary’s spiritual mission indeed offers profound insights. Let’s continue this conversation by delving deeper into the portrayal of these contrasting lives in the book.

The Portrayal of Power and Faith in Herod and Mary

Nick Sasaki: Thank you all for the rich exploration of the historical context. Let’s move on to our next topic, which centers on the portrayal of power and faith in Herod and Mary. Kathie, your book draws a sharp contrast between the earthly power wielded by Herod and the humble faith embodied by Mary. Could you share your thoughts on how you approached this dichotomy in your writing?

Kathie Lee Gifford: Absolutely, Nick. The contrast between Herod’s power and Mary’s faith is central to the narrative I wanted to create. Herod, as a king, had immense power, resources, and influence, yet his life was marked by fear, insecurity, and ultimately, a tragic end. Mary, on the other hand, was a young, ordinary woman from a small town, yet she played a pivotal role in God’s plan for humanity. Her strength came not from earthly power but from her unwavering faith and trust in God. I wanted readers to see that true power doesn’t come from status or wealth, but from faith and obedience to a higher purpose.

N.T. Wright: Kathie, your portrayal resonates deeply with biblical themes. The Gospels frequently juxtapose the values of the world with the values of God’s kingdom. Herod’s power is portrayed as a fleeting and ultimately self-destructive force. Despite his grandiose projects and political maneuvering, his reign is remembered for its brutality and paranoia. In contrast, Mary’s faith represents a subversive power — one that challenges the status quo. Her Magnificat, where she speaks of God scattering the proud and lifting the humble, is a powerful statement of divine reversal. It speaks to the way God works through the seemingly powerless to bring about His purposes.

Paula Fredriksen: This theme of reversal is indeed a critical element in understanding the contrast between Herod and Mary. Herod’s power is based on fear — fear of losing his throne, fear of rivals, fear of the unknown. His actions are driven by this fear, leading him to commit heinous acts, like the massacre of the innocents. Mary, in stark contrast, is depicted as someone who is fearless in her faith. When the angel Gabriel visits her, she is initially troubled but quickly responds with acceptance and trust in God’s will. This response is not just a personal act of faith but also a profound theological statement about where true power lies.

Ben Witherington III: The contrast between Herod’s use of power and Mary’s embodiment of faith also speaks to a larger narrative about the nature of authority and kingship in the Bible. Herod’s authority is coercive, rooted in military might and political alliances, yet it is fragile and ultimately hollow. Mary’s authority, however, is moral and spiritual. It’s rooted in her relationship with God and her willingness to participate in His plan. This is a recurring theme in the Bible, where we see that those who appear weak by worldly standards are often the ones through whom God accomplishes His greatest works. Mary’s story is a testament to this truth.

Kathie Lee Gifford: That’s exactly what I hoped to convey. Herod represents the kind of power that the world often values — power that dominates and controls. But Mary represents a different kind of power — one that comes from within, from a deep connection to something greater than oneself. Her story is a reminder that faith and obedience can have a far more lasting impact than any earthly power. Herod’s legacy is one of fear and violence, but Mary’s legacy is one of hope and salvation.

N.T. Wright: And that legacy of hope is something that continues to resonate today. Herod’s story is a cautionary tale about the dangers of unchecked ambition and the emptiness of worldly power. Mary’s story, on the other hand, offers a model of faith that is humble, trusting, and ultimately triumphant. It’s a narrative that invites us to reconsider our own definitions of power and success.

Nick Sasaki: The way you’ve all articulated the themes of power and faith is incredibly insightful. These contrasting elements are not just historical but also deeply relevant to our understanding of human nature and spirituality. As we move forward, let’s explore how these themes manifest in the broader context of God’s plan, as depicted in Kathie’s book.

The Role of Divine Providence in Herod and Mary

Nick Sasaki: Thank you for the engaging discussion on power and faith. Let’s now turn our attention to the theme of divine providence in Herod and Mary. Kathie, your book emphasizes how God’s plan unfolds despite Herod’s attempts to thwart it. Could you share your thoughts on how you illustrated the concept of divine providence through the lives of Herod and Mary?

Kathie Lee Gifford: Certainly, Nick. The concept of divine providence is central to the narrative. Throughout the Bible, we see that God’s plans are often carried out in ways that are unexpected and through people who might seem unlikely by worldly standards. Herod, with all his power and influence, represents the human attempt to control and manipulate events. In contrast, Mary’s life is a testament to the idea that even in the face of overwhelming odds and danger, God’s plan prevails. The story of Jesus’ birth, under the threat of Herod’s massacre, is a powerful example of how divine providence works through history, even when evil seems to have the upper hand.

N.T. Wright: Kathie, your book beautifully captures this tension between human agency and divine providence. Herod’s actions, driven by fear and a desire to maintain his grip on power, ultimately serve as a backdrop to the unfolding of God’s plan. The massacre of the innocents is a horrific event, yet even this act of violence cannot derail God’s purpose. The flight to Egypt, which parallels the story of Moses, highlights how God protects and preserves His chosen instruments. Mary’s role is crucial here; her willingness to participate in God’s plan, despite the personal risk, underscores the idea that God works through those who are open to His will, often in ways that defy human logic.

Paula Fredriksen: I’d like to add that the theme of divine providence in the book also invites readers to consider the broader historical and theological implications. Herod’s role as a persecutor of the early Christian narrative places him in a position where his actions, though intended to secure his power, actually fulfill prophecies and advance the divine plan. This is a recurring motif in biblical history, where God’s purposes are realized even through the actions of those who oppose Him. Mary’s story, on the other hand, highlights the active role of individuals in God’s plan. Her acceptance of the angel’s message is not just passive submission but a courageous embrace of her role in a divine narrative.

Ben Witherington III: The interplay between Herod’s actions and divine providence is indeed fascinating. Herod represents the archetype of the tyrant who tries to assert control over history, yet he is ultimately powerless against the unfolding of God’s plan. This theme of divine providence is not about predestination in a fatalistic sense but about the assurance that God’s purposes will be accomplished, often in ways that subvert human expectations. Mary’s faith and obedience are key to this narrative. She embodies the trust in divine providence that allows her to navigate the uncertainties and dangers of her time, knowing that she is part of something much greater.

Kathie Lee Gifford: That’s a crucial point, Ben. Mary’s story is not just about submission but about active participation in God’s plan. Herod’s attempts to control events through fear and violence ultimately fail because they are at odds with the divine will. Mary, on the other hand, aligns herself with God’s purposes, and in doing so, becomes a pivotal figure in the greatest story ever told. The idea that God’s plan can and will be accomplished, despite human opposition, is a source of hope and reassurance, especially in times of turmoil.

N.T. Wright: It’s also worth noting that this theme of divine providence invites reflection on how we understand history and the role of individuals within it. The Bible presents a view of history that is guided by God’s hand, where even the actions of those who oppose Him are woven into the larger tapestry of His plan. Mary’s story is a reminder that divine providence often works through the humble and the unexpected, and that faith and trust in God are more powerful than any earthly authority.

Nick Sasaki: This exploration of divine providence has provided profound insights into how the book navigates the complexities of history, power, and faith. Rather than being just a narrative device, this theme reflects deeply on the nature of God’s involvement in the world. Let’s continue our discussion by examining how these themes are further developed in the narrative, particularly through the events leading up to and following the birth of Jesus.

The Birth of Jesus and Its Theological Significance

Nick Sasaki: Thank you for the deep dive into divine providence. Let’s now turn to the central event in the book: the birth of Jesus. This moment is pivotal not only in the narrative but also in its theological significance. Kathie, could you share how you approached the depiction of Jesus’ birth and what you aimed to convey through this event?

Kathie Lee Gifford: The birth of Jesus is, of course, the climax of the story, both in the book and in the larger biblical narrative. I approached it with a deep sense of reverence and responsibility, knowing that this moment carries profound meaning for many. In the book, I wanted to emphasize the contrast between the worldly expectations of a king and the reality of Jesus’ humble beginnings. Born in a cave, laid in a manger, surrounded by simple shepherds, Jesus’ birth defies the expectations of grandeur associated with kingship. This setting highlights the unexpected ways in which God works and sets the stage for Jesus’ ministry, which consistently upends human assumptions about power and greatness.

N.T. Wright: Kathie, your depiction aligns well with the theological themes found in the Gospels, particularly in Luke’s account. The birth of Jesus is presented as a fulfillment of God’s promises, but it comes in a manner that subverts the expectations of what a Messiah should be. Theologically, this moment is significant because it marks the incarnation — God entering the world in human form, not as a mighty warrior or political leader, but as a vulnerable infant. This humility is a key aspect of Jesus’ identity and mission, and it sets the tone for his entire life and ministry. It also serves as a profound statement about the nature of God’s kingdom, which values the lowly and the meek.

Paula Fredriksen: What’s interesting is how the narrative of Jesus’ birth juxtaposes the divine with the ordinary. Mary, a young, unwed mother from a small town, becomes the bearer of God’s son, challenging societal norms and expectations. The theological significance of this event cannot be overstated. It’s a radical redefinition of where divine power resides — not in the palaces of kings like Herod, but in the lives of ordinary people. The shepherds who visit the newborn Jesus are a testament to this theme, representing the marginalized and the outcasts who are the first to receive the good news. This narrative challenges readers to reconsider their own understanding of divine action and where it can be found in the world.

Ben Witherington III: The birth of Jesus also carries significant theological weight in terms of its implications for the broader narrative of salvation history. The circumstances of Jesus’ birth fulfill Old Testament prophecies and highlight the continuity of God’s plan from the ancient promises made to Abraham and David, through to their fulfillment in Christ. The simplicity of the setting — a manger in Bethlehem — contrasts sharply with Herod’s grandiose attempts to maintain his power, reinforcing the book’s theme that true kingship and divine authority are found not in worldly power but in humility and service. This moment encapsulates the paradox of the Gospel: that the King of Kings comes not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.

Kathie Lee Gifford: That paradox is something I wanted to bring to the forefront in the book. Jesus’ birth is surrounded by simplicity and vulnerability, yet it is the most significant event in human history. It’s a powerful reminder that God’s ways are not our ways, and that what the world sees as weakness, God uses to demonstrate His strength. The reactions of those around Jesus’ birth — the shepherds, the wise men, even Herod — all point to the different ways people respond to the divine. Some, like the shepherds, are filled with awe and joy; others, like Herod, respond with fear and hostility. This contrast highlights the different paths people can take when confronted with the reality of God’s presence in the world.

N.T. Wright: Indeed, the birth of Jesus is not just a moment of historical significance but a theological statement about the nature of God’s intervention in the world. It invites us to see God’s kingdom as something that breaks into the ordinary and transforms it from within. The humility of Jesus’ birth is a call to all of us to embrace the values of God’s kingdom — values that stand in stark contrast to the power and prestige so often sought after in the world.

Nick Sasaki:This discussion has highlighted the rich theological implications of Jesus’ birth as portrayed in the book. This event serves not merely as a story but as a profound declaration of God’s love and purpose for humanity. As we move forward, let’s delve into the aftermath of Jesus’ birth and how the book explores the reactions of Herod and others to this pivotal moment.

The Aftermath of Jesus' Birth and Its Impact on Herod and the World

Nick Sasaki: Thank you for the deep exploration of the theological significance of Jesus’ birth. Let’s now turn our attention to the aftermath of this pivotal event. Kathie, your book delves into the reactions of key figures like Herod and others in the wake of Jesus’ birth. Could you share how you approached these responses and what they signify within the broader narrative?

Kathie Lee Gifford: Absolutely, Nick. The aftermath of Jesus’ birth is a critical part of the story, as it reveals the stark contrast between those who embrace this divine event and those who react with fear and hostility. Herod’s response is particularly telling. His fear of losing power drives him to commit one of the most heinous acts recorded in the Bible — the massacre of the innocents. This reaction illustrates how deeply entrenched evil can become when threatened by the presence of divine light. In contrast, figures like the shepherds and the wise men, who respond with worship and reverence, show us how openness to God’s plan leads to profound spiritual transformation.

N.T. Wright: Kathie, you’ve highlighted an important theme in the Gospels — the division that Jesus’ birth creates between those who recognize the significance of the event and those who see it as a threat. Herod’s reaction is emblematic of the worldly powers that feel threatened by the arrival of God’s kingdom. His violent response is a desperate attempt to cling to power, but it ultimately only serves to fulfill the prophecies and further God’s plan. This pattern of resistance to divine intervention is something we see throughout the Bible, where those in power often react violently to protect their status quo, while the humble and the faithful recognize and welcome God’s new movement.

Paula Fredriksen: The response of Herod and others in positions of power to the birth of Jesus can also be seen as a reflection of the broader human condition. Herod’s fear is not just political; it’s existential. The birth of Jesus, representing a new order and a new way of being, threatens the very foundation of Herod’s identity and authority. This existential threat is what drives Herod to such extreme measures. On the other hand, those who respond with faith, like the Magi, are willing to leave behind their old ways and embrace the new thing that God is doing. This contrast highlights the different ways people respond to the challenge of the divine — either with fear and resistance or with faith and submission.

Ben Witherington III: Herod’s actions in the aftermath of Jesus’ birth are a powerful reminder of the lengths to which people will go to resist God’s plan when it threatens their sense of control. The massacre of the innocents is a tragic and brutal attempt to stop what Herod sees as a challenge to his rule. Yet, in the larger narrative of the Gospels, this act of violence only underscores the futility of opposing God’s purposes. The flight of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus to Egypt, and their eventual return, echo the story of the Exodus and show how God continues to protect and guide His people, even in the face of great danger. This theme of divine protection and guidance is a key part of the book’s message.

Kathie Lee Gifford: That’s right, Ben. The aftermath of Jesus’ birth is not just about Herod’s reaction, but about the unfolding of God’s plan in the midst of human resistance. The fact that Jesus and His family are protected and guided even as Herod rages against them is a testament to the idea that God’s will cannot be thwarted. This part of the story also serves as a reminder that while evil may seem to have the upper hand at times, it is ultimately powerless against the divine. The birth of Jesus and the events that follow are a powerful declaration of God’s sovereignty and the triumph of light over darkness.

N.T. Wright: And this triumph is something that resonates deeply in Christian theology. The birth of Jesus is the beginning of a new era, one in which the powers of this world are put on notice that their days are numbered. Herod’s violent response is a last-ditch effort to maintain control, but it ultimately fails because it is rooted in fear and self-preservation, not in truth or righteousness. The aftermath of Jesus’ birth sets the stage for the rest of the Gospel narrative, where we see this pattern of resistance and acceptance play out again and again.

Nick Sasaki: This conversation has beautifully illuminated how the aftermath of Jesus’ birth, as portrayed in Kathie’s book, represents a microcosm of the larger battle between light and darkness, faith and fear. This moment has significant impacts not only on the characters within the narrative but also offers profound insights for readers today. As we conclude our discussion, I’d like to thank you all for your thoughtful contributions. The exploration of these themes has provided a deeper understanding of Herod and Mary and the powerful messages it conveys.

Short Bios:

Kathie Lee Gifford: Kathie Lee Gifford is an Emmy-winning television host, actress, singer, and author. Known for her long-standing role as co-host of Live! with Regis and Kathie Lee and later on NBC’s Today show, she has captivated audiences with her wit and charm. Kathie Lee is also a prolific author, with her latest work Herod and Mary: The True Story of the Tyrant King and the Mother of the Risen Savior exploring the contrasting lives of these two biblical figures.

N.T. Wright: N.T. Wright is a world-renowned New Testament scholar and former Bishop of Durham in the Church of England. He is the author of numerous influential books on Christian theology, including Surprised by Hope and Paul: A Biography. Wright is known for his scholarly yet accessible approach to understanding the historical context and theological significance of the New Testament.

Paula Fredriksen: Paula Fredriksen is a respected historian of religion, specializing in the origins of Christianity and Judaism in the Roman Empire. She has authored several important works, including Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews and Augustine and the Jews. Fredriksen’s research offers deep insights into the cultural and religious dynamics of the ancient world.

Ben Witherington III: Ben Witherington III is an esteemed New Testament scholar and Professor of New Testament at Asbury Theological Seminary. He has written over sixty books, including The Jesus Quest and The Indelible Image. Witherington is widely recognized for his expertise in socio-rhetorical interpretation of the New Testament and his ability to connect historical context with contemporary faith practices.