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Kris Kringle: Welcome, my friends! I’m so delighted you’ve joined us for this series of conversations inspired by the story of Miracle on 34th Street. Now, you may know me as Santa Claus, but I prefer to think of myself as a humble reminder of the kindness, belief, and hope that lie within each of us.
This isn’t just a story about me—it’s about the magic that happens when people open their hearts to possibilities. It’s about how faith and skepticism can coexist, how the true spirit of giving can shine through even in a world consumed by commercialism, and how a community united in love and purpose can accomplish the extraordinary.
Along the way, we’ll talk about important ideas like mental health and how society sometimes misunderstands what’s truly important. And, of course, we’ll celebrate the power of hope and the miracles that happen when we believe in one another.
I’ll be joined by some familiar faces—Susan Walker, who learned to believe, and Fred Gailey, who fought for the truth when it mattered most. Together, with some wonderful thinkers and storytellers, we’ll explore lessons that have stood the test of time.
So, let’s get started, shall we? It’s time to share a little magic, a little wisdom, and a whole lot of belief. After all, the world could use a bit of Christmas spirit any time of the year!
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The Battle Between Faith and Skepticism
Joe Rogan:
"Alright, welcome everyone to this fascinating conversation! Today, we’re diving into the timeless battle between faith and skepticism. I’ve got some heavyweights joining me—Kris Kringle, who claims to be Santa Claus; Susan Walker, a young girl raised as a skeptic who’s learning to navigate belief; Jay Shetty, who’s all about finding purpose and meaning; and C.S. Lewis, who wrote extensively on faith and reason. Let’s kick this off. Kris, you’ve spent your life defending belief in things like Santa Claus and the magic of Christmas. How do you handle skepticism, especially when people think you’re delusional?"
Kris Kringle:
"Well, Joe, skepticism is natural, especially in a world that values logic over wonder. But I always say, belief doesn’t have to replace reason—it complements it. What I do is remind people, especially children like Susan here, that sometimes, the most beautiful things in life can’t be seen or proven. Love, joy, and kindness—they’re as real as anything you can touch."
Susan Walker:
"But, Mr. Kringle, I was taught that believing in things like Santa Claus is silly. My mother always said it’s better to be practical and trust what you know for sure."
Jay Shetty:
"Susan, that’s a very common mindset, especially today. But here’s the thing—practicality and faith aren’t enemies. When we have faith, it’s not about blind belief; it’s about hope and imagination. Even the act of setting a goal requires faith in something you haven’t seen yet. Kris is teaching you that belief doesn’t have to be limited to fairy tales—it can shape your reality in profound ways."
Joe Rogan:
"That’s interesting, Jay. But C.S., what about the balance between skepticism and faith? Isn’t there a risk of being too idealistic?"
C.S. Lewis:
"Certainly, Joe. Faith without reason can become folly, but reason without faith leads to despair. In my experience, skepticism has its place—it protects us from gullibility. But if you shut the door on faith entirely, you also close yourself off to joy, beauty, and connection. Kris embodies a faith that inspires action, and Susan’s journey shows how belief can open the heart to possibilities beyond what we see."
Susan Walker:
"So, you’re saying it’s okay to believe in Santa Claus even if I don’t have proof?"
Jay Shetty:
"Exactly, Susan. Belief isn’t always about evidence; it’s about trust. For example, you trust your mom loves you even though you can’t measure it, right? Believing in Kris—or what he represents—can teach you about hope, kindness, and the magic of human connection."
Joe Rogan:
"That’s a good point. But Kris, let’s get real for a second. A lot of people out there think you’re just a guy in a red suit playing a role. How do you convince people like them that you’re more than that?"
Kris Kringle:
"Joe, it’s not about convincing them that I’m real. It’s about showing them what’s real within themselves. When I help someone feel the joy of giving or see a child’s face light up with belief, that’s proof enough for me. My purpose isn’t to prove my identity—it’s to inspire belief in what’s good and possible."
Joe Rogan:
"Alright, I’ll admit that’s inspiring. C.S., what do you think Kris represents in the grander scheme of belief systems?"
C.S. Lewis:
"Kris is a symbol of how faith can elevate humanity. His role as Santa Claus might seem trivial, but what he offers—a chance to believe in something greater than ourselves—is the foundation of all meaningful faith. He reminds us that miracles, whether grand or small, often begin with belief."
Susan Walker:
"I think I understand now. It’s not just about Santa Claus—it’s about believing in the good things that can happen when we choose to have faith."
Jay Shetty:
"Exactly, Susan. And that’s a lesson for all of us, especially in today’s world. Faith isn’t just about religion or tradition—it’s about finding light in the darkness and inspiring others to do the same."
Joe Rogan:
"Alright, I think we’ve got some powerful takeaways here. Faith and skepticism can coexist, and sometimes, believing in a little magic can lead to something bigger. Thanks, everyone, for this thought-provoking discussion!"
Commercialism vs. the True Spirit of Giving
Joshua Fields Millburn:
"Fred, Doris, it’s great to have you here. On The Minimalists Podcast, we often talk about how consumerism overshadows the true meaning of the holidays. From what I’ve seen in your story, you’ve experienced that struggle firsthand. Doris, as someone working in retail, how do you view the balance between sales and the spirit of giving?"
Doris Walker:
"That’s a tough one, Joshua. As the event director for Macy’s, I’ve always had to focus on the bottom line—making sales and promoting the store. But when Kris Kringle started telling customers to shop at other stores if Macy’s didn’t have what they needed, I saw something incredible. It built goodwill. People were happier, and that’s worth more than any sale."
Ryan Nicodemus:
"Exactly, Doris! Giving isn’t about selling more—it’s about creating meaningful connections. Fred, you were a big part of defending Kris Kringle’s message. How did you see his actions affect the community?"
Fred Gailey:
"Well, Ryan, Kris showed people that generosity isn’t about spending money—it’s about making someone’s life better. His approach inspired people to think beyond their wallets and remember the importance of kindness and gratitude. That’s what Christmas is supposed to be about, isn’t it?"
Marie Forleo:
"Absolutely, Fred. Kris’s story is a perfect example of how generosity can build trust and loyalty. Doris, do you think modern businesses could adopt Kris’s approach and still thrive?"
Doris Walker:
"I think they could, but it takes courage. What Kris taught me is that people remember how you make them feel. If a business can focus on serving their customers genuinely, instead of just pushing sales, they’ll not only thrive—they’ll create lasting relationships."
Joshua Fields Millburn:
"That’s powerful, Doris. But let’s dig deeper—how do we, as individuals, resist the pressure to buy into the consumerism of the holidays? Fred, any advice?"
Fred Gailey:
"Honestly, it’s about focusing on what really matters. When I look back on my time with Doris and Susan, I remember the laughter, the shared moments, and Kris’s lessons about generosity—not the gifts we exchanged. If people spent more time creating memories and less time shopping, they’d find the holidays far more fulfilling."
Marie Forleo:
"Fred, I couldn’t agree more. It’s about finding joy in giving—not just things, but time, attention, and love. Doris, do you think the lesson you learned with Kris has stuck with you?"
Doris Walker:
"Absolutely, Marie. At first, I thought Kris’s approach was bad for business, but it turned out to be the best thing for everyone. It reminded me to prioritize the spirit of giving—not just during Christmas, but all year round."
Ryan Nicodemus:
"That’s inspiring, Doris. To wrap things up, what’s one thing you’d say to people listening who want to break free from holiday consumerism?"
Fred Gailey:
"Spend less time shopping and more time connecting. A kind word or a shared moment can mean far more than the most expensive gift."
Doris Walker:
"And don’t be afraid to focus on what truly matters. The spirit of giving is about love, not price tags."
Joshua Fields Millburn:
"Well said, both of you. Thanks for joining us today and reminding us of what the holidays are really about."
Mental Health and Perceptions of “Sanity”
Mel Robbins:
"Welcome, everyone. Today we’re talking about something that’s deeply personal but universally important: mental health and the societal perceptions of sanity. Kris, in Miracle on 34th Street, your claim to be Santa Claus lands you in a psychiatric hospital. How did you cope with being labeled 'insane' just for standing by your truth?"
Kris Kringle:
"Mel, it wasn’t easy. I’ve always believed in spreading joy and love, but when people like Mr. Sawyer questioned my identity and intentions, it felt isolating. The key for me was remembering my purpose. Even when others doubted me, I stayed true to the values that define who I am."
Brené Brown:
"Kris, what you experienced aligns with what I call 'the courage to be vulnerable.' Standing by your truth, even when it’s misunderstood, takes immense bravery. Mr. Sawyer, as the one who questioned Kris’s sanity, do you think you were too quick to judge him?"
Granville Sawyer:
"Well, Brené, at the time, I believed I was doing my job—protecting the public from what I perceived as delusion. But looking back, I can see that I was operating out of fear. Kris’s belief challenged my understanding of reality, and instead of trying to understand him, I tried to dismiss him."
Mel Robbins:
"That’s a powerful insight, Mr. Sawyer. Brené, you talk a lot about the stigma surrounding vulnerability. How does this apply to Kris’s situation?"
Brené Brown:
"Mel, vulnerability often scares people because it exposes uncertainty. Kris embodies the kind of vulnerability that challenges societal norms. Instead of engaging with his message, people like Mr. Sawyer labeled him 'crazy.' It’s a defense mechanism that shields us from confronting uncomfortable truths."
Kris Kringle:
"And that’s where compassion comes in. I don’t blame Mr. Sawyer for doubting me. Society often struggles with ideas that don’t fit into neat categories. My goal has always been to open hearts, even if it takes time."
Granville Sawyer:
"Kris, your kindness makes me realize that I could have handled things differently. Perhaps I was too focused on control and certainty instead of seeing the bigger picture."
Mel Robbins:
"That’s a major step forward, Mr. Sawyer. One thing we often forget is that mental health is not just about diagnosing or labeling—it’s about empathy and understanding. Kris, what would you say to someone struggling with being misunderstood?"
Kris Kringle:
"I’d tell them to stay true to themselves. Even when the world questions your value, remember that your worth doesn’t come from others’ approval—it comes from the love and joy you bring to the world."
Brené Brown:
"And I’d add that seeking connection is key. We’re wired for it. Kris, your ability to connect with people—even those who doubted you—demonstrates the power of empathy in healing misunderstandings."
Mel Robbins:
"Absolutely. To wrap this up, Mr. Sawyer, what’s one lesson you’ve learned from this experience?"
Granville Sawyer:
"I’ve learned that labels like 'sane' or 'insane' are often tools of exclusion. Instead of judging people like Kris, we should take the time to understand them. There’s always more beneath the surface."
Mel Robbins:
"And Kris, any final words for those who feel like the world doesn’t understand them?"
Kris Kringle:
"Never stop believing in yourself and in the goodness of others. Even if the world seems skeptical, remember that kindness, love, and joy are the greatest truths we can share."
Mel Robbins:
"Well said, Kris. Thank you both for joining us. This conversation reminds us that understanding and compassion are the true markers of a healthy society."
The Power of Community and Collective Action
Jon Favreau:
"Welcome, everyone. Today, we’re talking about how communities can come together to overcome adversity. Fred, in Miracle on 34th Street, you fought for Kris Kringle in court, and it was the collective action of the community that helped win the case. What did that moment teach you about the power of people working together?"
Fred Gailey:
"Jon, it was incredible to witness. When the postal workers delivered those letters addressed to Santa Claus, it was more than just a legal strategy—it was a statement from the community. It showed that people believed in Kris and wanted to stand up for him. It taught me that when people unite behind a shared cause, they can achieve remarkable things."
Lin-Manuel Miranda:
"That’s inspiring, Fred. In my work, especially with Hamilton, I’ve explored how people coming together—whether it’s founding a nation or supporting one another—can create something larger than themselves. Susan, as someone who started skeptical, how did seeing the community rally around Kris impact you?"
Susan Walker:
"It changed everything for me, Lin. I’d always thought people were just out for themselves because that’s what my mom taught me. But when I saw so many people come together to help Kris, it made me realize that community isn’t just about being in the same place—it’s about believing in something together."
Jon Favreau:
"That’s a great point, Susan. Lin, in today’s world, how can communities stay connected and strong, especially when it feels like we’re more divided than ever?"
Lin-Manuel Miranda:
"Storytelling is one of the most powerful tools we have to bring people together. Whether it’s Kris’s story or the stories I tell on stage, shared narratives remind us of what we have in common. They inspire us to work toward a collective goal, just like the people in Miracle on 34th Street did."
Fred Gailey:
"Exactly, Lin. What made Kris so special was that he inspired people to believe in something bigger than themselves. That belief became the glue that held everyone together, even when the odds seemed impossible."
Jon Favreau:
"Fred, do you think communities today can still rally like that in the face of challenges?"
Fred Gailey:
"Absolutely, Jon. The key is finding leaders—like Kris—who remind us of our shared humanity. Whether it’s fighting for justice, helping a neighbor, or simply spreading kindness, small actions add up when they’re part of a collective effort."
Susan Walker:
"I think it’s also about learning to trust people. I didn’t believe in Kris or the community at first, but seeing them come together showed me that people can do amazing things when they support each other."
Lin-Manuel Miranda:
"Susan, that’s so true. Trust and belief are at the heart of any strong community. Without those, it’s hard to move forward together."
Jon Favreau:
"Alright, let’s wrap up with some advice for our listeners. Fred, what would you say to someone who wants to build a stronger community?"
Fred Gailey:
"Start small. Help a neighbor, support a cause, or simply listen to someone who needs to be heard. Community begins with connection."
Jon Favreau:
"And Lin, any final thoughts?"
Lin-Manuel Miranda:
"Find your story, share it, and invite others to join. Community is built on shared dreams, and together, those dreams can become reality."
Jon Favreau:
"Beautifully said. Susan, any last words?"
Susan Walker:
"I’d just say don’t be afraid to believe in people. When you do, you might be surprised by how much they can achieve together. I learned that sometimes you just have to trust, even when it feels scary."
Jon Favreau:
"That’s a perfect note to end on. Thank you, Fred, Susan, and Lin-Manuel, for sharing your insights. Today’s conversation reminds us that community is not just about geography—it’s about people coming together to create something bigger than themselves. Let’s all take a page from Kris Kringle’s playbook and inspire each other to build stronger, kinder, and more united communities."
Belief in Miracles and the Importance of Hope
Jay Shetty:
"Welcome, everyone. Today, we’re diving into the timeless themes of belief in miracles and the importance of hope. Kris, you’ve inspired so many people to believe in things they thought were impossible. How do you define a miracle, and why is hope so important in our lives?"
Kris Kringle:
"Jay, I believe a miracle is simply something extraordinary that stems from love, kindness, or faith. It doesn’t have to be grand—it could be as simple as a smile that lifts someone’s spirits. Hope is what allows us to see these miracles, even in the darkest times. Without hope, we’d never recognize the beauty around us."
Krista Tippett:
"That’s beautifully said, Kris. I often think of hope as a kind of muscle we have to nurture. Susan, as someone who started out doubting Kris and his message, what helped you find hope?"
Susan Walker:
"Honestly, it was seeing the little things Kris did—how he made people smile, how he brought out the best in everyone. And then there was the house he led us to at the end. It was exactly what I had wished for, and it made me realize that maybe miracles do happen when you believe in them."
Jay Shetty:
"That’s so powerful, Susan. Hope often starts with small moments like that. Krista, your podcast explores profound ideas about humanity and resilience. How do you think people can cultivate hope in today’s world, where challenges often feel overwhelming?"
Krista Tippett:
"Jay, I think it’s about learning to find awe in the ordinary—something Kris embodies so well. Hope isn’t about ignoring reality; it’s about holding onto the possibility of goodness and change. When we shift our focus to what’s possible, rather than what’s wrong, we start to create miracles in our own lives."
Kris Kringle:
"Exactly, Krista. Hope is contagious. When one person believes, it inspires others to believe as well. That’s why I always tell people to nurture the hope in their hearts—it’s the seed from which all miracles grow."
Susan Walker:
"Mr. Kringle, I think you’re right. When I stopped doubting everything and started believing, even just a little, it felt like a weight lifted off me. It’s like the world got brighter."
Jay Shetty:
"That’s the beauty of hope, Susan. Kris, if there’s one message about hope and miracles you could share with everyone listening, what would it be?"
Kris Kringle:
"Believe in the goodness of others and the possibilities within yourself. Miracles aren’t always about what happens to you—they’re about the love and joy you share with others. When you live with hope, you become the miracle someone else is waiting for."
Krista Tippett:
"I couldn’t agree more, Kris. Susan, as someone who experienced this firsthand, what advice would you give to someone struggling to believe in miracles?"
Susan Walker:
"I’d say start small. Look for little things—kindness, laughter, even a beautiful sunset. When you open your eyes to those, you’ll start to see how many good things are around you."
Jay Shetty:
"Beautifully said, Susan. Krista, any final thoughts on how we can keep hope alive?"
Krista Tippett:
"Hope is an act of courage. It’s a practice, not just a feeling. By choosing hope every day, we create a world where miracles—big and small—become possible."
Jay Shetty:
"And with that, thank you, Kris, Susan, and Krista, for this inspiring conversation. Let’s all take a moment to believe in miracles and hold onto hope, even when it feels hard. Because, as Kris said, when we live with hope, we might just become the miracle someone else is waiting for."
Short Bios:
Susan Walker – A pragmatic young girl raised not to believe in Santa Claus, who learns to open her heart to faith and miracles.
Fred Gailey – An attorney and idealist who defends Kris Kringle in court, championing the importance of belief and community.
Doris Walker – Susan’s practical mother and a Macy’s event director, who learns the value of hope and true generosity.
Granville Sawyer – The antagonistic Macy’s psychiatrist who questions Kris Kringle’s sanity and motivations.
Jay Shetty (On Purpose) – A former monk turned motivational speaker and podcast host, sharing wisdom on mindfulness, purpose, and hope.
Krista Tippett (On Being) – A journalist and podcast host exploring the intersection of spirituality, humanity, and resilience.
Mel Robbins (The Mel Robbins Podcast) – A speaker and author focusing on mental health, courage, and personal growth.
Brené Brown (Unlocking Us) – A research professor and bestselling author known for her work on vulnerability, empathy, and connection.
Jon Favreau (Pod Save America) – A former speechwriter and podcast host who explores the power of collective action and civic engagement.
Lin-Manuel Miranda (Freestyle Love Supreme) – A composer, actor, and playwright celebrated for his storytelling and themes of community and unity.
Joshua Fields Millburn & Ryan Nicodemus (The Minimalists) – Advocates for simple living, focusing on the power of generosity and meaningful connections.
Marie Forleo (The Marie Forleo Podcast) – A business coach and author dedicated to spreading joy and purpose through authentic giving.
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