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I’m thrilled to bring you into a truly extraordinary conversation—one that, though imagined, holds the potential to deeply inspire and transform our lives. Picture this: Thich Nhat Hanh, the Dalai Lama, Pema Chödrön, and Jack Kornfield—four of the most revered and respected voices in Buddhism—gathered together to explore the timeless teachings of The Heart of the Buddha's Teaching.
In this imaginary conversation, they dive into the core principles that have guided countless individuals towards a life of mindfulness, compassion, and inner peace. From understanding the Four Noble Truths to exploring the Noble Eightfold Path and the practice of the Six Paramitas, these spiritual leaders will share their unique perspectives and wisdom.
This discussion is not just about ancient teachings; it’s about how these principles can be applied to our modern lives, helping us navigate challenges with grace and clarity. So, let’s open our hearts and minds to the insights that these remarkable teachers have to offer. Whether you’re new to Buddhism or have been practicing for years, there’s something here for everyone. Let’s embark on this journey of discovery together.
The Four Noble Truths
Nick Sasaki: Welcome, everyone, to this profound discussion on the core teachings of Buddhism. Today, we are delving into one of the foundational principles: The Four Noble Truths. This concept is central to understanding and practicing the Buddha's teachings. I’m honored to be here with such esteemed guests: the Dalai Lama, Thich Nhat Hanh, Pema Chödrön, and Jack Kornfield. Let’s begin with your insights on the First Noble Truth: the truth of suffering.
Thich Nhat Hanh: The First Noble Truth, dukkha, is often translated as suffering, but it also encompasses a sense of dissatisfaction or unease that permeates our lives. It’s important to recognize that suffering is not something to be avoided or denied; it is an essential part of the human experience. By acknowledging it, we can begin to understand its roots and how to transform it. Suffering arises from various sources—physical pain, emotional distress, and existential anxiety. By facing these discomforts with mindfulness and compassion, we open the door to understanding and, eventually, to liberation.
The Dalai Lama: I agree with Thich Nhat Hanh. Suffering is a universal experience, and it is also a teacher. In Tibetan Buddhism, we emphasize that understanding suffering is the first step towards wisdom. Without acknowledging the existence of suffering, we cannot appreciate the path that leads to its cessation. The Buddha taught that life is marked by suffering because of our attachments and desires. However, this does not mean that life is only suffering; it means we need to recognize suffering in order to overcome it.
Pema Chödrön: The First Noble Truth invites us to lean into our suffering rather than avoid it. Many people try to escape discomfort through distractions or by numbing themselves, but the Buddhist path encourages us to sit with our suffering, observe it, and learn from it. This approach does not mean we seek suffering, but rather we acknowledge it with a sense of openness and curiosity. When we understand the nature of suffering, we can begin to relate to it differently—not as something to fear, but as a gateway to growth and compassion.
Jack Kornfield: Suffering is indeed a profound teacher. In the West, where I often teach, many people struggle with the concept of suffering because it is seen as something to be eradicated or fixed. However, the Buddha’s teaching on the Four Noble Truths shows us that suffering is an integral part of the human condition. It is through mindfulness and self-compassion that we can transform our relationship with suffering. By doing so, we lay the foundation for healing and inner peace.
Nick Sasaki: Thank you all for those insightful reflections. Now, moving on to the Second Noble Truth, which is about the cause of suffering. What are your thoughts on understanding the roots of our suffering?
Thich Nhat Hanh: The Second Noble Truth, samudaya, tells us that the cause of suffering is craving, desire, or attachment. It’s our tendency to cling to things—whether they are material possessions, relationships, or even ideas—that leads to suffering. This clinging is driven by ignorance, which prevents us from seeing the true nature of reality. In Buddhist practice, we are encouraged to look deeply into our desires and attachments to understand their impermanent and interdependent nature. By doing so, we can begin to loosen our grip and experience greater freedom.
The Dalai Lama: Desire and attachment are indeed central to the Buddha’s teachings on suffering. It is not the desire itself that is problematic, but the attachment and the expectation that these desires will bring us lasting happiness. When we expect external circumstances or possessions to bring us joy, we set ourselves up for disappointment because all conditioned phenomena are impermanent. The practice of detachment does not mean renouncing the world but rather cultivating a balanced relationship with it, where we can enjoy life without being bound by our desires.
Pema Chödrön: Our suffering often stems from our resistance to what is. We desire things to be different from how they are, and this creates a gap between our reality and our expectations. This gap is where suffering arises. By practicing acceptance and letting go of our rigid attachment to how things should be, we can begin to dissolve this gap and find peace in the present moment. The practice of mindfulness helps us see these patterns of clinging and aversion and allows us to respond with more equanimity.
Jack Kornfield: Understanding the causes of suffering is crucial for our spiritual growth. The Buddha’s insight into the nature of craving and attachment is a powerful tool for transformation. By bringing awareness to the desires that drive us and the fears that underlie them, we can begin to unravel the knots of suffering in our lives. This process requires patience and self-compassion, as we learn to let go of the expectations and attachments that no longer serve us.
Nick Sasaki: These are profound insights into the nature and cause of suffering. We will continue this discussion by exploring the Third and Fourth Noble Truths, but for now, let’s reflect on what has been shared. Thank you all for your wisdom.
The Noble Eightfold Path
Nick Sasaki: Thank you all for your profound insights into the Four Noble Truths. We’ve explored the nature of suffering and its causes, and now we’ll delve into the path that leads to the cessation of suffering, the Noble Eightfold Path. This path is often described as the way to end suffering and achieve enlightenment. I’d like to start with Thich Nhat Hanh’s thoughts on this.
Thich Nhat Hanh: The Noble Eightfold Path is the Buddha’s practical guide for ethical and mindful living. It is divided into three main categories: wisdom (Right View, Right Intention), ethical conduct (Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood), and mental discipline (Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration). Each aspect of the path supports the others, creating a comprehensive approach to transforming our lives. In my teachings, I often emphasize the importance of mindfulness (Right Mindfulness) as the foundation for all the other practices. When we are mindful, we can see the true nature of our thoughts, words, and actions, and how they contribute to our suffering or our liberation.
The Dalai Lama: The Eightfold Path is a holistic approach to living that cultivates both wisdom and compassion. Right View is crucial because it sets the foundation for the entire path. It involves understanding the Four Noble Truths and seeing the world as it truly is—impermanent, interconnected, and free from a permanent self. Right Intention follows, guiding our motivations towards renunciation, goodwill, and harmlessness. Without the right view and intention, the other aspects of the path cannot be fully realized. Ethical conduct—Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood—reminds us that our actions have consequences, not only for ourselves but also for others. By aligning our behavior with ethical principles, we create a life that is harmonious and conducive to spiritual growth.
Pema Chödrön: The Noble Eightfold Path is not just a set of rules; it’s a way of living that leads to freedom from suffering. What I find particularly transformative is the emphasis on Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood. These are practices that we engage in every day, and they offer us the opportunity to bring mindfulness and compassion into our interactions with others. Right Speech, for example, encourages us to speak truthfully, kindly, and with the intention to help rather than harm. This is not always easy, especially when we are caught up in our own emotions or reactivity, but it is through these practices that we begin to soften our hearts and connect more deeply with others.
Jack Kornfield: The Noble Eightfold Path is often seen as a set of guidelines, but it’s more accurate to view it as a way of cultivating a life of integrity, wisdom, and compassion. Right Effort, for instance, is about directing our energy wisely—avoiding unwholesome actions and nurturing those that lead to peace and happiness. Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration are the mental disciplines that help us maintain focus and clarity in our meditation practice and daily life. Through these practices, we develop the ability to be present, to see things as they are, and to respond with wisdom and compassion. The path is not a linear progression but an ongoing practice that deepens over time.
Nick Sasaki: These explanations beautifully illustrate the interconnectedness of the elements of the Noble Eightfold Path. Let’s dive a bit deeper into how these elements can be applied in modern life. Thich Nhat Hanh, could you elaborate on how mindfulness, as part of this path, can be integrated into our everyday activities?
Thich Nhat Hanh: Mindfulness is the energy that brings us back to the present moment. It allows us to touch life deeply in the here and now. Whether we are eating, walking, or washing the dishes, we can bring our full attention to these activities. When we are mindful, we see clearly, and we can recognize the beauty and wonder of life in each moment. This practice not only brings joy and peace but also helps us to see the roots of our suffering, allowing us to transform it. Mindfulness is not separate from the other aspects of the path; it is the thread that weaves through them all, helping us to live fully in alignment with the teachings of the Buddha.
The Dalai Lama: Mindfulness, or Right Mindfulness, is indeed central to the Buddhist path. It’s important to practice mindfulness not only during meditation but also in our daily lives. For example, when we are mindful in our interactions with others, we become aware of our speech and actions, ensuring that they are in harmony with our ethical principles. This awareness helps us to act with kindness and compassion, reducing the suffering of others and ourselves. Mindfulness also helps us to observe our thoughts and emotions without being carried away by them, creating space for wisdom to arise.
Pema Chödrön: In our fast-paced world, mindfulness can sometimes seem like a luxury, but it’s actually a necessity. It’s what allows us to slow down and see clearly what is happening in our lives. When we are mindful, we can catch ourselves before we react out of habit or fear. This is where the path really comes to life—when we start to see that every moment is an opportunity to practice. Mindfulness is the key to transforming our suffering, because it allows us to be with our experience without judgment, to stay present with whatever arises, and to respond with compassion rather than reactivity.
Jack Kornfield: Mindfulness is the foundation for a wise and compassionate life. It allows us to see the world with fresh eyes, free from the filters of our conditioning. When we practice mindfulness, we are training our minds to be present, to observe without attachment or aversion. This practice opens the door to deeper understanding and insight, allowing us to live in harmony with ourselves and others. The Noble Eightfold Path is not just a philosophy but a practical guide for living a life of wisdom, compassion, and peace. By integrating these teachings into our daily lives, we can begin to transform our suffering and find true happiness.
Nick Sasaki: This has been an enlightening exploration of the Noble Eightfold Path and its practical applications. We’ve seen how these teachings can guide us in living more mindful, ethical, and compassionate lives. Thank you all for your profound contributions. We’ll continue our journey by discussing the next topic, which is the concept of Interbeing and Non-Self.
Interbeing and Non-Self
Nick Sasaki: Thank you all for your illuminating discussion on the Noble Eightfold Path. Now, let’s turn our attention to two interconnected concepts in Buddhism: Interbeing and Non-Self. These ideas challenge our usual understanding of identity and existence. Thich Nhat Hanh, you’ve done a lot to bring these concepts into mainstream consciousness. Could you start us off?
Thich Nhat Hanh: The concept of Interbeing is central to my teachings. Interbeing means that all things are interconnected; nothing exists independently. For example, when you look at a piece of paper, you can see the cloud in it. Without the cloud, there would be no rain, and without rain, the trees could not grow, and without trees, there would be no paper. The paper and the cloud inter-are. This insight helps us realize that we are not separate from each other or from the world around us. We are deeply connected to everything, and our actions have a profound impact on the whole. When we truly understand Interbeing, we cultivate compassion, because we see that harming others is harming ourselves.
The Dalai Lama: The idea of Interbeing aligns closely with the Buddhist concept of dependent origination, which teaches that all phenomena arise in dependence on conditions and causes. Nothing exists independently; everything is interconnected. This understanding leads us to the realization of Non-Self, or anatta in Pali. The notion of a permanent, unchanging self is an illusion. What we consider the self is a collection of changing physical and mental components—there is no fixed, enduring essence within us. Understanding this can free us from attachment and ego, which are at the root of suffering.
Pema Chödrön: The teachings on Interbeing and Non-Self can be challenging because they go against our deeply ingrained beliefs in a solid, separate self. But when we start to explore these concepts in our meditation practice, we begin to see how fluid and interconnected our experience truly is. We are constantly in a state of flux, influenced by and influencing the world around us. This understanding can be liberating because it shows us that we are not as isolated or fixed as we often believe. It opens the door to compassion because we see that our well-being is tied to the well-being of others.
Jack Kornfield: These teachings on Interbeing and Non-Self are profound because they touch on the very nature of existence and identity. In the West, where individualism is highly valued, the idea of Non-Self can be difficult to grasp. But when we look deeply into our experience, we see that what we call the self is a constantly changing process, not a static entity. Our thoughts, emotions, and even our bodies are in continuous flux, interconnected with everything else. This realization can bring a sense of freedom because it allows us to let go of our attachment to a fixed identity and open up to the vastness of life.
Nick Sasaki: These perspectives offer a profound shift in how we understand ourselves and our place in the world. How can the concept of Interbeing influence our daily lives and relationships?
Thich Nhat Hanh: When we understand Interbeing, we see that our happiness and suffering are not individual matters—they are interconnected with the happiness and suffering of others. This realization leads us to live more mindfully and compassionately. We begin to care for the environment, not just because it affects us directly, but because we see ourselves as part of the web of life. In our relationships, we become more understanding and less prone to conflict because we see that the other person is not separate from us. We are all part of the same continuum of life, and this awareness can transform how we relate to each other.
The Dalai Lama: Interbeing also encourages us to adopt a more compassionate and altruistic outlook. When we recognize that our well-being is tied to the well-being of others, we naturally develop a sense of responsibility for the welfare of all sentient beings. This is the foundation of the Bodhisattva path in Mahayana Buddhism, where the ultimate goal is to attain enlightenment for the benefit of all. By embracing Interbeing, we move away from self-centeredness and towards a life of service and compassion.
Pema Chödrön: In our everyday lives, the practice of Interbeing can help us develop a greater sense of empathy and connection. When we see that we are not separate from others, we become more patient and less reactive. For instance, when someone is angry with us, instead of responding with anger, we can pause and see the situation from their perspective, recognizing that their suffering is not separate from ours. This shift in perspective can defuse conflict and build stronger, more compassionate relationships.
Jack Kornfield: Embracing Interbeing and Non-Self can also help us deal with the challenges and changes in life. When we understand that everything is interconnected and impermanent, we can approach life’s ups and downs with greater equanimity. We are less likely to cling to the good times or resist the difficult ones because we see that everything is part of a larger, interconnected process. This understanding brings a sense of peace and acceptance, allowing us to navigate life with wisdom and compassion.
Nick Sasaki: These teachings on Interbeing and Non-Self offer a transformative way of seeing the world and ourselves. By recognizing our interconnectedness, we can live with greater compassion, wisdom, and peace. Thank you all for sharing your deep insights. Our next topic will explore the Six Paramitas, or Perfections, and how they guide us on the path to enlightenment.
The Six Paramitas (Perfections)
Nick Sasaki: Thank you all for the enlightening discussion on Interbeing and Non-Self. Now, let’s explore the Six Paramitas, or Perfections, which are key practices in Mahayana Buddhism aimed at guiding practitioners on the path to enlightenment. These paramitas—generosity, morality, patience, diligence, meditation, and wisdom—are essential for cultivating a compassionate and awakened life. I’d like to start with the Dalai Lama’s perspective on these perfections.
The Dalai Lama: The Six Paramitas are foundational practices that help us develop the qualities necessary to achieve Buddhahood. Each paramita represents a specific aspect of the path to enlightenment, but they are all interconnected and support one another. Generosity, the first paramita, is not just about giving material goods; it also includes giving time, energy, and love. When we practice generosity, we loosen our attachment to possessions and cultivate a sense of abundance and openness. This practice prepares the ground for the other paramitas, as it opens our hearts and minds to the needs of others and the world around us.
Thich Nhat Hanh: The Six Paramitas are essential tools for transforming our suffering and helping others do the same. Generosity, or dana, is indeed the first step, and it is about more than just material giving. It includes offering our understanding, our presence, and our forgiveness. When we give in this way, we cultivate joy in ourselves and others. The second paramita, morality or ethical conduct (sila), involves living in a way that does not harm others. This includes practicing the Five Mindfulness Trainings, which are guidelines for ethical living. When we live ethically, we create a foundation of trust and peace within ourselves and in our relationships with others.
Pema Chödrön: The third paramita, patience (kshanti), is particularly important in our fast-paced world. Patience involves being open and accepting of whatever arises in our experience, whether it’s pleasant or unpleasant. It’s about not reacting impulsively to difficulties but instead meeting them with a calm and compassionate heart. This practice can be especially challenging, but it is also incredibly transformative. Patience allows us to stay present with our experience without being overwhelmed by it. It helps us to cultivate equanimity and resilience, both in our meditation practice and in our daily lives.
Jack Kornfield: The fourth paramita, diligence or effort (virya), is about maintaining a consistent and joyful effort in our practice. It’s about finding the balance between exerting effort and not becoming too rigid or perfectionistic. Diligence means cultivating enthusiasm and perseverance on the path, even when we encounter obstacles. This paramita is crucial because it sustains us on the journey and helps us keep going, even when the path is difficult. It’s about showing up fully in each moment and bringing our best effort to whatever we do.
Nick Sasaki: These explanations provide a profound understanding of the first four paramitas. How do the last two paramitas—meditation and wisdom—integrate with the others to complete the path?
Thich Nhat Hanh: Meditation (dhyana), the fifth paramita, is the practice that underpins all the others. It involves cultivating mindfulness and concentration, allowing us to see deeply into the nature of reality. Through meditation, we develop insight into the impermanent and interconnected nature of all things, which helps us to let go of attachments and aversions. This practice not only brings inner peace but also clarity and understanding, which are essential for cultivating wisdom, the sixth paramita. Wisdom (prajna) is the crown of the Six Paramitas; it is the deep understanding of the nature of reality, free from ignorance and delusion. Wisdom is not just intellectual knowledge; it is a direct, experiential insight that arises from our practice of the other paramitas.
The Dalai Lama: Meditation and wisdom are indeed closely linked. Through meditation, we develop the ability to calm the mind and see things as they truly are. This clarity leads to wisdom, which is the understanding of emptiness, or the true nature of phenomena. Emptiness does not mean nothingness, but rather the absence of inherent, independent existence. When we realize this, we are freed from the delusions that cause suffering. Wisdom is what ultimately leads to liberation, as it allows us to see beyond the surface of things and understand the interdependent nature of all existence.
Pema Chödrön: The practice of meditation is what grounds us in the present moment and allows us to cultivate the qualities of the other paramitas. It’s through meditation that we develop the stability and insight needed to practice patience, diligence, and ethical conduct. Wisdom, which arises from this deep practice, helps us to see the bigger picture and to act from a place of understanding and compassion. It is the wisdom that allows us to navigate the complexities of life with grace and ease.
Jack Kornfield: Meditation and wisdom are the culmination of the path. They are the practices that help us integrate all the teachings into our daily lives. Through meditation, we learn to observe our minds, to see the patterns of thought and emotion that drive our actions. This awareness allows us to make wiser choices and to act from a place of compassion and understanding. Wisdom, as the final paramita, is the realization that all the other practices have been pointing towards. It is the deep knowing that comes from living a life aligned with the truth of interbeing and non-self.
Nick Sasaki: The Six Paramitas offer a comprehensive path for developing the qualities of an awakened being. Through generosity, morality, patience, diligence, meditation, and wisdom, we cultivate a life of compassion and insight, leading us toward enlightenment. Thank you all for sharing your profound insights on these essential practices. We’ll now move on to our final topic, where we’ll discuss how these teachings can be applied in the modern world.
Applying Buddhist Teachings in the Modern World
Nick Sasaki: We’ve explored the deep and transformative teachings of Buddhism, from the Four Noble Truths to the Six Paramitas. Now, let’s turn our attention to how these ancient teachings can be applied in today’s fast-paced and often stressful world. How can the principles of Buddhism help people navigate modern challenges? Let’s start with you, Pema Chödrön.
Pema Chödrön: In today’s world, where there is so much division, anxiety, and uncertainty, the teachings of Buddhism offer a path to peace and clarity. One of the most practical applications is the practice of mindfulness. By bringing mindfulness into our daily lives, we can create space to respond to situations rather than react impulsively. This practice can be especially helpful in managing stress and cultivating resilience. For example, in the workplace, mindfulness can help us stay focused and centered, allowing us to handle challenges with greater calm and creativity. On a personal level, mindfulness can improve our relationships by helping us to communicate more effectively and compassionately.
Thich Nhat Hanh: I agree, Pema. Mindfulness is the key to living fully in the present moment, which is the only moment where life truly happens. In the modern world, many people are caught up in regrets about the past or anxieties about the future, and they miss the beauty and opportunities of the present. By practicing mindfulness, we can bring our full attention to what we are doing, whether it’s eating a meal, having a conversation, or simply breathing. This not only reduces stress but also enhances our ability to appreciate life’s simple joys. Moreover, when we are mindful, we are more aware of our interconnectedness with others and the world, which can lead to more compassionate and ethical choices.
The Dalai Lama: Another important aspect of applying Buddhist teachings in the modern world is compassion. Compassion is not just a feeling but a commitment to act for the welfare of others. In today’s interconnected world, our actions can have far-reaching impacts, and it’s crucial that we act with a sense of responsibility and care. Whether it’s addressing global issues like climate change and social injustice or simply helping a neighbor in need, compassion can guide us to make positive contributions. This is where the practice of the Six Paramitas becomes relevant; by cultivating generosity, patience, and wisdom, we can navigate the complexities of modern life while staying true to our values.
Jack Kornfield: The wisdom of Buddhist teachings also offers a way to find balance in our lives. In a world that often prioritizes productivity and achievement, it’s easy to lose sight of what truly matters. The teachings on impermanence and non-self remind us that everything is constantly changing and that clinging to external success or a fixed identity can lead to suffering. By embracing the principle of letting go, we can reduce the pressure we put on ourselves and others, leading to a more balanced and fulfilling life. This doesn’t mean we become passive; rather, it means we engage with life fully but without attachment to specific outcomes.
Nick Sasaki: These teachings provide a powerful framework for living with greater peace and purpose in today’s world. How can individuals begin to incorporate these practices into their daily lives, especially if they are new to Buddhism?
Pema Chödrön: For those new to Buddhism, I recommend starting with simple mindfulness practices. You don’t need to meditate for hours each day to experience the benefits. Begin by setting aside a few minutes each morning to focus on your breath and observe your thoughts without judgment. Throughout the day, try to bring mindful attention to routine activities like eating or walking. This helps to anchor you in the present moment and build a foundation for deeper practice. As you become more comfortable, you can explore other aspects of the teachings, such as the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.
Thich Nhat Hanh: Another accessible practice is mindful breathing. Breathing is something we do all the time, but often we are not aware of it. By bringing our attention to our breath, we can calm our minds and return to the present moment. You can practice mindful breathing anywhere—while waiting in line, during a stressful moment, or even while enjoying nature. This simple practice can transform your experience of daily life and bring a sense of peace and clarity.
The Dalai Lama: I also encourage people to cultivate compassion through small acts of kindness. Compassion doesn’t have to be grand or dramatic; it can be as simple as listening to someone with empathy or offering help to a stranger. These small acts build the habit of compassion and connect us to the wider community. Additionally, studying the teachings, whether through books, online courses, or attending talks, can provide a deeper understanding and inspire continued practice.
Jack Kornfield: It’s important to remember that the path is personal and that there’s no one-size-fits-all approach. Start where you are and with what resonates with you. Whether it’s meditation, mindful living, or ethical practices, each aspect of the teachings can be integrated into your life in a way that feels natural. And remember, the journey is ongoing. Be patient with yourself and allow your practice to evolve over time. Engaging with a community, or sangha, can also provide support and encouragement as you explore these teachings.
Nick Sasaki: These insights offer a practical and compassionate approach to integrating Buddhist teachings into our lives, no matter our starting point. By embracing mindfulness, compassion, and ethical living, we can navigate the challenges of the modern world with wisdom and grace. Thank you all for your contributions to this enriching conversation.
Short Bios:
Thich Nhat Hanh: A Vietnamese Zen master, poet, and peace activist, Thich Nhat Hanh is known for his teachings on mindfulness, peace, and the practice of "Engaged Buddhism." His work has touched millions through his writings and global retreats.
Dalai Lama: His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhism and a global advocate for peace, compassion, and human values. He is a Nobel Peace Prize laureate and has authored numerous books on Buddhism and ethics.
Pema Chödrön: An American Tibetan Buddhist nun, Pema Chödrön is a beloved teacher and author, known for her practical and accessible teachings on meditation, mindfulness, and compassion. Her books, such as When Things Fall Apart, have inspired readers worldwide.
Jack Kornfield: A leading teacher in the Vipassana (Insight Meditation) tradition, Jack Kornfield is a co-founder of the Insight Meditation Society and Spirit Rock Meditation Center. He has authored several books that bring Buddhist teachings to Western audiences, focusing on mindfulness and loving-kindness practices.
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