What Motivates Moral Courage: A Dialogue Between Two Heroes

Oskar Schindler, a German industrialist, used his position and resources to shield over a thousand Jews from the horrors of the Holocaust by employing them in his factories. His story, immortalized in the film 'Schindler's List,' is a testament to the impact of individual courage and moral conviction.

Chiune Sugihara, a Japanese diplomat stationed in Lithuania, defied his government's orders and issued thousands of transit visas to Jewish refugees, enabling them to escape the impending genocide. His actions, often referred to as issuing 'visas for life,' saved thousands and exemplified extraordinary bravery and compassion.

Today, we delve into the motivations that drove them to act, the monumental challenges they faced, and the enduring impact of their heroic deeds. We will explore their reflections on humanity, the moral dilemmas they navigated, and the lessons they wish to impart to future generations.

This dialogue promises to inspire and remind us all of the power of individual action in the face of overwhelming odds. It underscores the importance of standing up for what is right, even when it is difficult. Please join me in welcoming two of history's most courageous and compassionate figures, Oskar Schindler and Chiune Sugihara.

Motivations Behind Their Actions

Nick Sasaki: "Welcome, Oskar Schindler and Chiune Sugihara. It's an honor to have you both here to discuss your incredible contributions during one of the darkest periods in history. To begin, I'd like to ask each of you about the motivations behind your actions. What drove you to take such enormous risks to save so many lives during the war?"

Oskar Schindler: "Thank you, Nick. My journey to becoming a rescuer wasn't straightforward. Initially, I was a businessman, focused on profit and exploiting opportunities in wartime. However, as I spent more time with the Jewish workers in my factory, I began to see them not as mere laborers but as individuals with families, dreams, and inherent dignity. The turning point for me was witnessing the brutality of the Nazi regime firsthand. I saw people being herded like cattle, stripped of their humanity, and destined for extermination. It was impossible to remain indifferent. My conscience wouldn't allow it. I had resources and connections that could be leveraged to protect these people. It became a moral imperative to use my influence for good, even if it meant risking my life and livelihood."

Chiune Sugihara: "I share similar sentiments, Oskar. For me, the motivation came from a deep sense of duty and compassion, rooted in my upbringing and values. As a diplomat in Lithuania, I encountered countless Jewish refugees who were fleeing the horrors of the Nazi advance. They arrived at my consulate desperate, with nowhere else to turn. The despair in their eyes and the stories of unimaginable suffering touched me profoundly. I knew that issuing transit visas to Japan, even without official approval, was their only hope for survival. My wife, Yukiko, and I understood the risks involved, including potential retribution from our government and loss of my career. However, we believed that saving lives was paramount. We couldn't stand by and do nothing while innocent people perished."

Nick Sasaki: "It's inspiring to hear how your paths, though different, converged on the same fundamental principles of humanity and compassion. How did your respective backgrounds influence your decisions?"

Oskar Schindler: "My background was quite varied. I was born into a privileged family in Czechoslovakia and enjoyed a comfortable life. My experiences during the war, however, reshaped my perspective. The injustice and suffering I witnessed compelled me to act. I had connections within the Nazi party, which initially were purely for business. But I realized I could use these connections to negotiate and protect my Jewish workers. It was a dangerous game, but one that I was willing to play to save lives."

Chiune Sugihara: "My background was also influential. I was raised in Japan with a strong sense of duty and honor, influenced by both my family and education. As a diplomat, I was trained to adhere to strict protocols and represent my country's interests. However, I believed that true duty extended beyond mere obedience to orders. It encompassed a moral responsibility to act justly and humanely. My experiences in Manchuria and later in Europe exposed me to different cultures and the universal struggles of humanity. These experiences solidified my resolve to help those in desperate need, even at great personal risk."

Nick Sasaki: "Your stories highlight the profound impact that individual choices can have in the face of systemic evil. What message would you want people today to take from your actions?"

Oskar Schindler: "I'd say that each of us has the power to make a difference, no matter our circumstances. It often requires courage and a willingness to take risks, but the impact of standing up for what's right is immeasurable. Compassion and action go hand in hand."

Chiune Sugihara: "I agree. It's essential to remember that our humanity binds us all. Acts of kindness, no matter how small, can ripple through time and space, creating hope where there was none. It's about choosing to do what's right, even when it's difficult."

Nick Sasaki: "Thank you both for sharing your profound insights. Your courage and compassion continue to inspire generations to stand up against injustice and to act with empathy and integrity."

The Challenges They Faced

Nick Sasaki: "Thank you for sharing your motivations, Oskar and Chiune. Moving on, let's discuss the significant challenges you faced during your efforts to save lives. The risks you took were immense, and I'd like to understand better what obstacles you encountered and how you overcame them."

Oskar Schindler: "The challenges were numerous and constantly evolving. The most significant hurdle was navigating the dangerous political landscape of the Nazi regime. My initial connection to the party, intended for business advantages, became a double-edged sword. To maintain the facade that my factory was indispensable for the war effort, I had to constantly negotiate, bribe, and manipulate high-ranking Nazi officials. It was a delicate balance—one wrong move could have led to immediate suspicion and arrest, not only for me but also for the hundreds of Jews I was protecting. Additionally, managing the financial strain was a constant battle. The money required to bribe officials and provide for the workers' needs often exceeded my resources. There were times when I wondered how long I could sustain it."

Chiune Sugihara: "I faced similar and different challenges in my role as a diplomat. Bureaucratic and diplomatic obstacles were significant. Issuing visas without proper authorization was against protocol and could lead to severe repercussions from my superiors. When the influx of Jewish refugees began, I was torn between my duty to my government and my moral responsibility to these desperate people. Every visa I issued was a risk, and I knew it could jeopardize my career and the safety of my family. The sheer volume of requests was overwhelming. We worked day and night, my wife and I, handwriting thousands of visas. The physical and emotional toll was immense. Additionally, there was the challenge of securing safe passage for these refugees once they left Lithuania. Coordinating with various governments and ensuring that the visas would be honored required constant vigilance and negotiation."

Nick Sasaki: "The magnitude of these challenges is staggering. How did you find the strength to persevere despite these obstacles?"

Oskar Schindler: "My strength came from the realization that the lives of my workers depended on my actions. Every day was a battle, but their survival was worth every risk. I drew strength from their resilience and courage. Their hope became my driving force. There were moments of doubt and fear, but the alternative—doing nothing—was unthinkable. The trust they placed in me was a heavy burden, but also a source of immense strength."

Chiune Sugihara: "For me, it was a combination of duty, faith, and support from my family. My wife, Yukiko, was a pillar of strength. Her unwavering support and belief in our mission kept me going. Additionally, my personal faith and the teachings I grew up with instilled in me the importance of compassion and justice. The knowledge that we were saving lives gave me the resolve to continue, even when the challenges seemed insurmountable."

Nick Sasaki: "It's clear that both of you relied heavily on your inner convictions and the support of those around you. Were there any particular moments or events that stand out as especially challenging or pivotal?"

Oskar Schindler: "One of the most challenging moments was the liquidation of the Kraków Ghetto. Witnessing the brutality and chaos was a turning point for me. It was then that I realized the full extent of the Nazi regime's cruelty. The decision to transform my factory into a haven was solidified in those horrific scenes. Another pivotal moment was when the war was nearing its end, and the SS began to retreat. The uncertainty of what would happen to my workers if they were discovered by the retreating or advancing forces was terrifying. It was a race against time to ensure their safety."

Chiune Sugihara: "For me, the most pivotal moment was when I received the direct order from the Japanese government to leave Lithuania. It was a clear directive to cease all visa activities. I had to make a rapid decision—follow orders or continue issuing visas in defiance. We chose to stay until the last possible moment, issuing as many visas as we could. The final days were frantic, with us writing visas from our hotel room and even from the train as we departed. That decision, though fraught with risk, was essential to saving more lives."

Nick Sasaki: "Your stories are a testament to the incredible courage and resilience required to stand against overwhelming odds. Your actions have left an indelible mark on history. Thank you for sharing these deeply personal and challenging experiences."

This conversation delves into the specific obstacles and risks faced by Schindler and Sugihara, highlighting their extraordinary bravery and determination in the face of immense danger.

Impact and Legacy

Nick Sasaki: "Thank you, Oskar and Chiune, for sharing the profound challenges you faced. Now, I'd like to turn to the impact and legacy of your actions. How do you both feel about the long-term effects of what you did during the war, and how do you view your legacy today?"

Oskar Schindler: "Reflecting on the impact of my actions, I am filled with a sense of pride but also a lingering feeling of 'what if'. Saving over a thousand lives is something that I am immensely proud of, but the magnitude of the Holocaust always weighs heavily on my mind. There were millions who weren't saved, and that shadow looms large over my legacy. However, when I look at the families and descendants of those I helped, I see hope and resilience. Knowing that my actions have allowed future generations to thrive and remember their past gives me a sense of fulfillment. My legacy, as it is often told, is one of redemption and transformation—a story of a flawed man who found his humanity in the midst of inhumanity."

Chiune Sugihara: "I share similar sentiments, Oskar. The immediate impact of issuing those visas was the preservation of thousands of lives, which is something I hold dear. The gratitude and recognition I received from survivors and their families over the years have been incredibly moving. It was not until later in life that I fully understood the scale of what we had done. The legacy that has been built around my actions is one of quiet courage and moral integrity. It underscores the importance of individual action in the face of systemic evil. I am humbled by the acknowledgment of my work, but I also believe that anyone in my position with the same values would have done the same. The true legacy is in the lives saved and the generations that followed."

Nick Sasaki: "Your legacies indeed live on in the lives of those you saved and their descendants. How do you feel about the way your stories have been portrayed in books, films, and media?"

Oskar Schindler: "My story has been immortalized in Steven Spielberg's film 'Schindler's List,' which has done a remarkable job of capturing the essence of that period. While the film takes certain artistic liberties, it has brought global attention to the Holocaust and the individual acts of courage that emerged from it. The emotional impact of the film has helped educate and remind people of the atrocities committed, as well as the power of individual action. I am grateful that my story serves as a reminder of what one person can do in the face of overwhelming evil."

Chiune Sugihara: "For me, the portrayal of my story in various documentaries and books has been a profound experience. It was not widely known for many years, especially in Japan, where our actions were not immediately recognized. However, as awareness grew, so did the understanding of the significance of those 'visas for life'. The narratives that have emerged highlight not just my actions, but also the broader context of moral courage during a time of great peril. It is heartening to see that my story inspires others to act with compassion and integrity in their own lives."

Nick Sasaki: "It's evident that both of your stories have had a lasting educational impact. What message or lesson do you hope future generations will take from your actions?"

Oskar Schindler: "I hope future generations understand the importance of standing up against injustice, no matter the cost. It's easy to feel powerless in the face of systemic evil, but individual actions can have profound effects. Courage isn't the absence of fear, but the determination to act despite it. I want people to remember that one person's efforts can make a significant difference in the lives of many."

Chiune Sugihara: "I hope people learn the value of empathy and the moral imperative to act when confronted with injustice. Bureaucratic procedures and orders should never override our fundamental duty to humanity. It's crucial to remember that our actions, guided by compassion and a sense of duty, can create ripples of positive change. Each of us has the power to make ethical choices, even in the most challenging circumstances."

Nick Sasaki: "Your words resonate deeply. The legacies you have left are powerful reminders of the impact one person's moral courage can have on the world. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the lasting effects of your extraordinary actions."

This conversation highlights the enduring impact and legacy of Schindler and Sugihara's actions, emphasizing the importance of individual courage and moral responsibility in the face of systemic injustice.

Personal Reflections on Humanity

Nick Sasaki: "Oskar and Chiune, we've talked about your motivations, challenges, and the legacy of your actions. Now, I'd like to delve deeper into your personal reflections on humanity. Based on your experiences, how do you view humanity and our capacity for both good and evil?"

Oskar Schindler: "My experiences during the war exposed me to the extremes of human behavior. On one hand, I witnessed unspeakable cruelty and evil. The systematic genocide orchestrated by the Nazi regime was a manifestation of humanity at its worst. The dehumanization and brutality were beyond comprehension. However, amidst this darkness, I also saw incredible acts of bravery, kindness, and resilience. The Jews who worked in my factory demonstrated an unbreakable spirit and a capacity for hope that was truly inspiring. It made me realize that even in the direst circumstances, the human spirit can endure and shine. This duality of human nature—the capacity for both immense evil and profound goodness—is something that has deeply shaped my understanding of humanity."

Chiune Sugihara: "I resonate with what Oskar has said. My work as a diplomat during the war put me in a unique position to witness both the bureaucratic indifference that can enable atrocities and the individual acts of compassion that can counter them. The refugees who came to me for visas were not just numbers; they were individuals with dreams, fears, and families. Their stories of suffering highlighted the depths of human cruelty, but their determination to survive and the solidarity they showed one another also highlighted our capacity for resilience and kindness. I believe that every person has the potential for both good and evil, and it is the choices we make, often in the most challenging circumstances, that define our humanity."

Nick Sasaki: "Your insights are profound. Given this duality, what do you think drives people to commit acts of great evil or great good?"

Oskar Schindler: "I think a lot of it comes down to circumstances and influences. People can be driven to commit evil acts through indoctrination, fear, and the dehumanization of others. The Nazis, for example, created an environment where hatred and prejudice were normalized, and dissent was brutally punished. In such an environment, it became easier for individuals to justify and participate in atrocities. On the other hand, acts of great good often arise from empathy, courage, and a sense of moral duty. For me, it was seeing the humanity in my workers and feeling a moral obligation to protect them. The key is recognizing our shared humanity and acting on that recognition, even when it is difficult or dangerous."

Chiune Sugihara: "I agree. The environment and societal pressures play a significant role in shaping our actions. However, I also believe in the power of individual choice. In every situation, we have the capacity to choose compassion over cruelty, empathy over indifference. It's these choices that define our character. In my case, the decision to issue visas was driven by a deep sense of empathy and a commitment to doing what was right, regardless of the personal risks. I believe that our upbringing, values, and experiences shape our ability to make such choices. Education and awareness are crucial in fostering a society that values compassion and justice."

Nick Sasaki: "It's encouraging to hear that despite the capacity for evil, there's also a strong potential for good in each of us. What advice would you give to individuals and societies today to foster more of this positive potential?"

Oskar Schindler: "My advice would be to remain vigilant against hatred and prejudice. It often starts subtly, with small acts of discrimination and dehumanization. These can escalate if left unchecked. It's essential to stand up against injustice in all its forms and to support those who are vulnerable. Cultivating empathy and understanding through education and personal connections can help counteract the forces of division and hatred."

Chiune Sugihara: "I would advise individuals to act with empathy and integrity in their daily lives. Small acts of kindness can have a significant impact. On a societal level, promoting education that emphasizes human rights, ethics, and the lessons of history is vital. Encouraging open dialogue and understanding among different communities can help build a more compassionate and just society. Remember that our actions, no matter how small, contribute to the broader fabric of humanity."

Nick Sasaki: "Your reflections are both sobering and inspiring. They remind us of the importance of individual choices and the impact they can have on the world. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on humanity and our capacity for both good and evil."

This conversation explores Schindler and Sugihara's reflections on humanity, emphasizing the importance of empathy, education, and individual choices in fostering a more compassionate world.

Advice for Future Generations

Nick Sasaki: "Thank you, Oskar and Chiune, for your deep reflections on humanity. For our final topic, I'd like to ask you what advice you would give to future generations facing their own moral dilemmas. What lessons from your experiences do you think are most important for people today and in the future?"

Oskar Schindler: "One of the most important lessons I can impart is the value of individual action in the face of overwhelming adversity. In times of moral crisis, it can be tempting to think that one person's actions are insignificant. However, my experience has shown me that even a single person's efforts can have a tremendous impact. When I decided to protect my Jewish workers, it wasn't because I believed I could save them all. It was because I couldn't live with myself if I didn't try. My advice to future generations is to never underestimate the power of your own actions. Stand up against injustice, even when it seems like the odds are against you. Small acts of courage can inspire others and create a ripple effect of positive change."

Chiune Sugihara: "I completely agree with Oskar. Another crucial piece of advice is to always act with empathy and integrity. The decisions I made to issue visas were not easy, but they were guided by a deep sense of compassion and a commitment to doing what was right. In today's world, where we often face complex moral dilemmas, it's essential to remember that our actions should be grounded in a genuine concern for the well-being of others. This requires us to listen, to understand different perspectives, and to act with kindness. Moreover, integrity means standing by your principles, even when it's difficult or unpopular. It's about being true to your values and doing what you know is right, regardless of the consequences."

Nick Sasaki: "Your advice on individual action and empathy is powerful. How can people cultivate these qualities in their daily lives?"

Oskar Schindler: "Cultivating these qualities starts with small, everyday choices. Practice empathy by putting yourself in others' shoes and trying to understand their experiences and feelings. Be mindful of the impact of your actions on those around you. Even small gestures of kindness can make a significant difference. Additionally, don't shy away from difficult conversations or situations. Standing up for what's right often requires courage and a willingness to face discomfort. Surround yourself with people who inspire and support you, and don't be afraid to take risks for the sake of justice and humanity."

Chiune Sugihara: "I would add that education and self-awareness are key. Educate yourself about the world and the different cultures and histories that shape it. Understanding the past helps us to avoid repeating the same mistakes. Self-awareness involves reflecting on your values and actions regularly. Ask yourself if you are living in accordance with your principles and if your actions contribute to the greater good. It's also important to foster a sense of global citizenship. Recognize that we are all part of a larger community and that our actions can have far-reaching effects. Engage in community service, support humanitarian causes, and be an advocate for human rights."

Nick Sasaki: "These are incredibly valuable insights. In today's rapidly changing world, where do you see the biggest moral challenges, and how should future generations address them?"

Oskar Schindler: "One of the biggest moral challenges we face today is the rise of divisive ideologies and the erosion of empathy. It's crucial to challenge and counteract these negative forces by promoting understanding and unity. Future generations should strive to build bridges between different communities and foster a culture of inclusivity and respect. The fight against injustice and discrimination must continue, and it requires vigilance and proactive engagement from everyone."

Chiune Sugihara: "Another significant challenge is the ongoing struggle for human rights and the protection of vulnerable populations. Whether it's refugees, marginalized communities, or victims of conflict, there are still many people in need of support and protection. Future generations must advocate for policies and practices that uphold human dignity and equality. This involves both local and global efforts to ensure that everyone has access to basic rights and opportunities. Additionally, addressing environmental issues is a moral imperative. The well-being of our planet directly impacts the well-being of its inhabitants, and we have a responsibility to act as stewards of the environment."

Nick Sasaki: "Your perspectives highlight the importance of continuous effort and advocacy for a better world. Thank you, Oskar and Chiune, for sharing your wisdom and experiences with us. Your legacies remind us that even in the darkest times, individuals have the power to make a profound difference. As we face our own challenges, your advice will serve as a guiding light for future generations striving to build a more just and compassionate world."

This conversation emphasizes the importance of individual action, empathy, integrity, and continuous advocacy in addressing moral challenges, drawing on the experiences of Schindler and Sugihara to offer valuable advice for future generations.

Short Bios:

Oskar Schindler (1908-1974) was a German industrialist and member of the Nazi Party who became an unexpected hero during World War II. Using his factories as a cover, Schindler employed over a thousand Jews, protecting them from deportation and certain death in concentration camps. His story was immortalized in the 1993 film "Schindler's List," highlighting his courageous efforts to save lives amidst the horrors of the Holocaust. After the war, Schindler was honored by Israel as one of the Righteous Among the Nations for his humanitarian deeds.

Chiune Sugihara (1900-1986) was a Japanese diplomat stationed in Lithuania during World War II. Defying his government's orders, Sugihara issued thousands of transit visas to Jewish refugees, enabling them to escape Nazi persecution. His brave and compassionate actions saved approximately 6,000 lives, earning him recognition as a hero. Sugihara's legacy is celebrated worldwide, and he was honored as Righteous Among the Nations by Israel. His story is a testament to the profound impact of individual courage and moral integrity in the face of great peril.