Pema Chödrön’s When Things Fall Apart: Pain and Compassion

Pema Chödrön’s When Things Fall Apart has touched the lives of millions, offering profound wisdom for navigating life’s most challenging moments.

Today, I am thrilled to bring you an imaginary  conversation that explores the very heart of her teachings. We’ll be joined by an incredible group of voices—Thich Nhat Hanh, Brené Brown, Jack Kornfield, and Ram Dass—who will share their insights on embracing pain, letting go of fear, and finding compassion in ourselves and others.

Together, they’ll dive into how we can turn life’s struggles into powerful opportunities for growth and connection. You won’t want to miss this inspiring and transformative discussion!

Embracing Pain, Fear, and Discomfort

Nick Sasaki: Welcome, everyone, to a deep discussion on embracing pain, fear, and discomfort. I’m excited to hear the insights from each of you as we explore how these difficult emotions can be pathways to growth. Pema, why don’t you begin by sharing your perspective on this?

Pema Chödrön: Thank you, Nick. Pain and fear are often seen as enemies, something we instinctively want to push away. But I’ve learned that they’re not obstacles to our well-being—they’re actually doorways to our inner strength and wisdom. When things fall apart in our lives, it’s an opportunity to see clearly the patterns we cling to. The discomfort we feel is a sign that we’re on the edge of something important. Instead of resisting, if we allow ourselves to sit with the pain, we begin to open up to our humanity, and in that process, we grow.

Thich Nhat Hanh: Yes, Pema, I resonate with what you’ve shared. In my experience, pain is part of the fabric of life, like the breath. Just as we breathe in and breathe out, suffering and joy come and go. When we embrace suffering as a natural part of life, without rejecting it, we create the space for healing. Mindfulness is key. By simply being present with our pain, we can touch the deeper truths of impermanence and interbeing. When we see that everything is connected, we realize that pain is not something to run away from, but a teacher that brings us back to our true nature.

Brené Brown: I agree with both of you. In my work on vulnerability, I often talk about how discomfort is a prerequisite for growth. We’re so conditioned to avoid pain, but when we numb ourselves to fear and discomfort, we also numb ourselves to joy and connection. I’ve found that courage doesn’t mean we’re fearless—it means we show up despite our fear. Leaning into the discomfort of vulnerability is how we find the strength to transform pain into something meaningful. It’s about accepting our imperfections and embracing the full spectrum of emotions, rather than selecting only the pleasant ones.

Jack Kornfield: Yes, Brené, vulnerability is such a powerful teacher. In the Buddhist tradition, we talk about facing the reality of suffering through mindfulness and compassion. Suffering is inevitable, but how we relate to it makes all the difference. Rather than seeing pain as something to escape, we can view it as a vehicle for awakening. When we meet our suffering with mindfulness, we soften around it, allowing compassion for ourselves and others to emerge. This compassionate heart helps us navigate the difficulties of life with more grace. Pain and fear become part of the spiritual path.

Ram Dass: That’s right, Jack. What I’ve learned in my own journey is that pain is not something to be fixed, but something to be lived. It’s part of the divine play. I had to embrace my own pain when I experienced physical challenges, and it taught me to live in the moment more fully. I learned to stop resisting and to see pain as a friend—an invitation to go deeper. Fear, too, can be our ally. When we face it without judgment, it dissolves, leaving behind a greater sense of peace. It’s all about how we frame our experiences—are we running away or opening our hearts to what is?

Pema Chödrön: Exactly, Ram Dass. Pain, fear, and discomfort are all part of the human condition. But the key is how we choose to respond to them. We can harden our hearts, or we can soften, open, and learn from them. When we sit with our fear and pain, we begin to see that they’re not as solid or permanent as they seem. They come and go, like everything else. And in that realization, there’s a kind of freedom. We can learn to trust the process of life, even when things are falling apart.

Nick Sasaki: Powerful insights from each of you. It’s clear that embracing pain and discomfort, rather than avoiding them, opens the door to deeper growth and compassion. These are not just challenges but opportunities to connect more deeply with ourselves and others. Thank you, everyone, for sharing your wisdom.

Impermanence and Groundlessness

Nick Sasaki: Now, let's dive into the concept of impermanence and groundlessness. Pema, could you start us off by explaining how embracing these ideas can help us find peace in an unpredictable world?

Pema Chödrön: Of course, Nick. Impermanence is at the heart of Buddhist teachings. Everything in life is constantly changing—our thoughts, our emotions, our relationships. When we resist this reality, we create suffering for ourselves. Groundlessness is the idea that there is no solid, unchanging foundation in life. It may sound unsettling, but in accepting groundlessness, we actually find a profound sense of freedom. When we stop clinging to things that are constantly shifting, we can relax into the flow of life as it is.

Dalai Lama: Pema is absolutely right. In Buddhism, we say that everything is subject to change, and nothing is permanent. This understanding helps us reduce our attachment to material things, relationships, or even our own sense of self. By recognizing the impermanent nature of everything, we can cultivate a state of mind that is flexible, peaceful, and more compassionate. When we stop trying to control the uncontrollable, we naturally find a sense of inner calm, even in the midst of uncertainty.

Eckhart Tolle: This acceptance of impermanence is deeply aligned with what I teach about presence. When we are attached to the past or future, we miss the only thing that is truly real—the present moment. Groundlessness is not something to fear, but an invitation to surrender to what is. Once we release our need for control and accept that everything is in constant flux, we can tap into a deeper peace that transcends the circumstances of life. The ego thrives on stability, but true freedom comes from embracing the flow of existence without resistance.

Richard Rohr: From a Christian contemplative perspective, the idea of impermanence is closely tied to the concept of surrendering to God’s will. Life is a continuous unfolding mystery, and our attempts to hold onto certainties are often what lead to our greatest struggles. Groundlessness, in my view, is recognizing that we are not in control, but there is a deeper wisdom guiding the universe. By embracing impermanence, we open ourselves to trust in this divine flow, finding solace in the unpredictability of life.

Tara Brach: I’d like to add that impermanence isn’t just an abstract concept—it’s something we experience intimately every day. Whether it’s the changing nature of our emotions or the aging of our bodies, we are constantly reminded that nothing stays the same. When we resist this reality, we create unnecessary suffering. But when we embrace impermanence, we can develop a sense of ease with life’s unpredictability. Groundlessness becomes a place of possibility, where we are free to respond to each moment as it comes.

Pema Chödrön: Absolutely, Tara. When we truly accept that everything is impermanent, we begin to loosen our grip on life. Groundlessness might feel uncomfortable at first, but it’s also where transformation happens. Without a fixed ground, we’re open to change, to growth, and to experiencing life fully as it unfolds. It’s about learning to trust that even when we don’t know what’s coming next, we have the capacity to meet whatever arises with openness and courage.

Nick Sasaki: Fascinating perspectives on how impermanence and groundlessness can lead us to greater freedom and peace. These ideas challenge us to let go of our need for control and embrace life’s natural flow. Thank you all for your insights.

Letting Go of Ego and Attachment

Nick Sasaki: Now, let’s move on to the topic of letting go of ego and attachment. Pema, how does releasing these attachments help us navigate life with more ease and clarity?

Pema Chödrön: The ego and our attachments are often the root of much of our suffering. We hold tightly to our identities, our desires, and our ideas about how life should be. But when we let go of these attachments, we create space for more openness and freedom. It’s about softening around the edges, allowing life to unfold without the need to control it. The more we cling, the more we suffer. Letting go of the ego means we stop taking things so personally, which in turn helps us respond to life with more clarity and compassion.

Michael A. Singer: I completely agree, Pema. In my experience, the mind is constantly trying to grasp onto things—whether it’s our identity, emotions, or even thoughts themselves. The problem is, these attachments prevent us from experiencing the flow of life as it is. The more we cling to the ego, the more we build barriers between ourselves and reality. Letting go of attachment is about surrendering to the natural movement of life, trusting that when we release control, we align with something far greater than the small self.

Sharon Salzberg: Yes, and in Buddhist practice, particularly with loving-kindness meditation, we learn to let go of attachment by cultivating compassion for ourselves and others. Attachment to our desires or fixed outcomes keeps us stuck in cycles of craving and aversion. But when we open our hearts, we soften those attachments. This doesn’t mean we stop caring—it means we stop clinging. Letting go doesn’t mean losing everything; it means finding freedom in non-attachment, where we can love and engage more fully without needing to hold on so tightly.

Eckhart Tolle: What Pema, Michael, and Sharon are saying is essential. The ego is not just the part of us that wants things—it’s the part that constantly seeks validation, identity, and meaning from external circumstances. When we let go of the ego, we stop identifying with the thoughts and narratives it creates. This is where real liberation begins. The more we practice observing the mind, rather than being consumed by it, the more we dissolve the ego’s grip. It’s in this state of non-attachment that we experience true presence and peace.

Thich Nhat Hanh: I would add that letting go of attachment is also about understanding interbeing—the interconnectedness of all things. The ego sees itself as separate from others, and that illusion of separation is the source of much suffering. When we let go of this false self, we see that we are not isolated individuals, but part of a larger whole. Our happiness and suffering are intertwined with the happiness and suffering of others. Non-attachment allows us to live with greater compassion and mindfulness.

Pema Chödrön: Exactly, Thich Nhat Hanh. Letting go of ego doesn’t mean we lose ourselves—it means we let go of the false constructs we’ve built around who we think we are. And in doing so, we’re free to experience life with a wider, more compassionate view. It’s about being present with what is, rather than what we wish things to be. When we’re not attached to a specific outcome, we can engage with life more fully and joyfully.

Nick Sasaki: Beautifully said. Letting go of ego and attachment seems to be about finding freedom through release, not through possession. This topic really sheds light on how we can live with less internal resistance and more openness. Thank you all for your powerful contributions.

Mindfulness and Meditation as Tools for Transformation

Nick Sasaki: Moving on to our next topic—mindfulness and meditation as tools for transformation. Pema, how do these practices help us transform our relationship with life’s challenges?

Pema Chödrön: Mindfulness and meditation are at the heart of transforming our relationship with suffering. When we meditate, we learn to observe our thoughts and emotions without getting caught up in them. This allows us to see our patterns more clearly and respond to life’s challenges with more spaciousness. Rather than reacting out of habit or fear, mindfulness gives us the opportunity to pause, breathe, and make conscious choices. It’s a tool that helps us develop compassion for ourselves and others because we see how we are all going through similar struggles.

Jack Kornfield: I agree, Pema. Meditation is a way to deepen our awareness and connect with the present moment. When we’re caught in cycles of stress or suffering, it’s usually because we’re lost in thoughts about the past or the future. Mindfulness brings us back to what is happening right now. And in that presence, we discover that even in difficult moments, there is still space for peace. It’s not about escaping our problems but transforming our relationship to them. With practice, we begin to see that we don’t have to be controlled by our thoughts and emotions—they are just passing clouds in the sky of our awareness.

Tara Brach: Absolutely, Jack. In mindfulness, we also cultivate a sense of radical acceptance—an openness to whatever is arising in the moment. Often, we spend so much energy resisting our pain or discomfort, which only amplifies it. Through meditation, we learn to sit with what’s difficult without trying to change or fix it. This acceptance doesn’t mean passivity—it’s a powerful way of meeting life with clarity and kindness. When we stop fighting reality, we create the conditions for transformation to occur naturally.

Richard Rohr: From a contemplative Christian perspective, meditation is about entering into the stillness where we encounter the divine presence within us. Silence and mindfulness allow us to transcend the ego’s constant chatter and open ourselves to deeper wisdom. It’s not just about self-awareness but about realizing our connection to something greater. Transformation happens when we move beyond the mind’s limited perspective and allow ourselves to be guided by that deeper presence. Meditation, in this sense, is a way of listening to the still, small voice within that leads us to inner peace.

Dalai Lama: Yes, and as I’ve taught, meditation trains the mind. Our minds are often undisciplined, jumping from thought to thought. This leads to confusion and suffering. But through meditation, we develop mental clarity and stability. Mindfulness allows us to see our thoughts and emotions without being swept away by them. And when we are mindful, we are better able to cultivate compassion for others because we understand our shared humanity. Transformation begins when we can bring peace and stability to our own minds.

Pema Chödrön: Exactly, Dalai Lama. Meditation helps us cultivate the ability to sit with whatever arises in our minds and hearts without being overwhelmed. Through this practice, we become more resilient, more compassionate, and more connected to the present moment. It’s about learning to embrace life as it is, rather than as we wish it to be. And in that embrace, transformation naturally unfolds.

Nick Sasaki: Meditation and mindfulness truly seem to offer profound tools for personal and spiritual transformation, helping us navigate life with more clarity and compassion. It’s inspiring to hear how these practices can shape our relationship with ourselves and the world. Thank you all for your thoughtful insights.

Compassion and Connection

Nick Sasaki: Let’s move on to our final topic: compassion and connection. Pema, how does compassion, especially self-compassion, play a role in our ability to connect with others and ourselves during challenging times?

Pema Chödrön: Compassion is the foundation of everything we’ve been discussing. When we face difficult moments, the instinct is often to harden our hearts, either against ourselves or others. But real healing and transformation happen when we soften instead. Self-compassion is particularly important because it allows us to treat ourselves with the same kindness we would offer to someone we love. When we can be gentle with our own suffering, we naturally open up to the suffering of others. This creates a sense of connection and shared humanity, reminding us that we’re never alone in our pain.

Dalai Lama: Yes, I’ve often said that compassion is not just a feeling, but a necessity for human survival. We are interdependent beings, and true happiness comes from contributing to the well-being of others. When we practice compassion, we move beyond our own suffering and connect with the larger world. Compassion begins with self, but it expands outward, leading to deeper connections with others. Whether we’re experiencing joy or pain, the act of caring for others brings profound meaning to our lives. And in today’s world, cultivating compassion is more important than ever.

Brené Brown: I completely agree. My research on vulnerability shows that compassion and connection are deeply linked. When we allow ourselves to be vulnerable—whether it’s through admitting our pain, mistakes, or fears—we create a space for others to do the same. This shared vulnerability fosters deeper connections because we realize that we’re all imperfect and struggling in some way. It’s through our willingness to be compassionate with ourselves that we find the courage to reach out and connect with others authentically. And it’s in these connections that healing and transformation can occur.

Sharon Salzberg: Compassion, both for ourselves and others, is central to the practice of loving-kindness. When we can genuinely wish ourselves and others well, despite the difficulties we face, we begin to cultivate a sense of connection that transcends the immediate circumstances. This is where compassion becomes a powerful tool. It’s not about fixing or solving others' problems or even our own. It’s about being present with suffering—whether our own or someone else’s—and holding it with kindness. That simple act of presence is deeply transformative because it reminds us that we are all interconnected, and that kindness is a bridge that links us to one another.

Ram Dass: That’s beautifully said, Sharon. Compassion, for me, has been the key to moving beyond the small self, the ego. When I’m focused on my own suffering, it feels overwhelming. But the moment I extend compassion outward—toward another person, toward life itself—I feel that connection to something greater. And that’s where the magic happens. Compassion transforms suffering into an opportunity for love, for connection, and for growth. It’s about seeing beyond the immediate pain and recognizing the unity we all share. In that unity, there’s a deep peace that transcends the individual struggles we face.

Pema Chödrön: Yes, Ram Dass. And that’s the paradox—when we turn toward our own suffering with compassion, we find ourselves connecting more deeply with others. It’s through this shared experience of vulnerability and imperfection that we begin to realize the interconnection of all beings. Compassion, in this way, becomes not just an emotional response but a spiritual practice. It helps us navigate life with an open heart, even in the midst of suffering.

Nick Sasaki: It’s clear that compassion is a vital bridge, connecting us with others and ourselves, transforming our pain into an opportunity for deeper connection and healing. Thank you all for sharing your wisdom on this profound topic.

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